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#299271 - 11/05/06 04:58 AM Shoge Durability
Buffalo_Soldia Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 9
I'm going to a ninjustu bujinkan school and am enrolling in a Shoge weapon training class. I was thinking of getting a real steal Shoge to either train at home, or train when I think I'm ready to. I was thinking of getting this...

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/tigerstrike-martial-arts_1918_5500965

The thing is, the chain really doesn't look all that well built. It looks like the thing could break if I swung it too hard. I've checked out other stores, but the shogees seem the same quality. Anybody gotten one of these? Are they well built and it's just my assumption, or they made kinda cheap?

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#299272 - 07/03/08 09:18 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: Buffalo_Soldia]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
First off, Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu, it is Budo Taijutsu, but that is an argument I would not like started here. To answer your question, nearly all factory made martial art weapons are rather cheap and not "real" like you think. They are often made from cheap mild steel or even worse, 440 stainless steel. Metal such as that will bend beyond your belief. However, if you were to buy one, it would be for practice and not real combat so it should suffice. But don't ever think for a minute it is "live" weaponry. You'll be lucky (or unlucky) if it's even sharpened. I prefer to make my own weapons though. Even you, with a few power tools like most people have around the house (metal cutting saw or even a drill finished off with a hacksaw and a file) can make a better production than they do. But you would need to find a decent piece of steel if you intend to heat treat it, but that is only if you know what you are doing.
I hope this answers your question.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299273 - 07/07/08 08:06 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

First off, Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu, it is Budo Taijutsu, but that is an argument I would not like started here.




There are no legitimate schools of strictly ninjutsu. There are only 4 well known practices that involve ninjutsu in their curriculum but none are exclusively ninjutsu. Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan and Toshindo all incorporate various other arts into their curriculum in one fashion or another. Considering they all stem from the same source, from Takamatsu through Hatsumi, their syllabus are all fairly similar but just vary in approach as with any art that has branched into different schools. Until just a few years ago they all wore the "ninjutsu" moniker, it was the stigma of the Hollywood ninja that caused the Hatsumi to change the name to Budo Tai Jutsu and Tanemura to go with "ninpo". Regardless of what they are called all 4 of the "well known" legitimate schools use the same 3 systems of ninjutsu.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299274 - 07/07/08 09:54 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Happy birthday! I appreciate that you spend time on this particular day to post a reply to me. I agree that there are no "known" legitimate schools of strictly Ninjutsu. The problem with the other arts is that they deviate sharply on key points from the art itself, and while they may be including pieces, it is not correct to call them Ninjutsu. Though I have no problems that they use those pieces, I just would not like to see plums claiming to be pears in front of the consumer. The arts themselves are not too bad either, they are useful as they are. Btw, I mentioned I don't want this argument started but I hope my point came across as I intended. Thanks.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299275 - 07/07/08 10:26 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
laf!
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

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#299276 - 07/08/08 11:28 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

I agree that there are no "known" legitimate schools of strictly Ninjutsu.




What system of ninjutsu is it you study? You see here is the rub of things. There are only 3 legitimate systems of ninjutsu still in practice today. All 3 of those systems are what make up the foundations of the four schools i mentioned. There are instructors who received menkyo kaiden in these 3 forms of ninjutsu who today only teach one or all of those three, but they are rare. Anyone claiming to teach or study ninjutsu that isn't Togakure-Ryu, Gyokushin-Ryu or Kumogakure-Ryu or was derived directly from one or all three is misrepresenting their art. I have yet to find a single ninjutsu instructor provide a shred of evidence that their system was legit outside of the three systems i just mentioned. Even those are some what suspect in the eyes of historians. Even still Hatsumi has said long ago that he will no longer teach ninjutsu "in depth" in regards to specifics from the Hiden oral teachings. Tanemura still goes into depth with select students as does Hayes while Manaka markets his system simply as "traditional Japanese martial arts" though he doesn't deny his roots.

For those claiming Koga Ryu, well none so far have been able to produce any evidence of legitimacy. Fujita Seiko stated himself that the art would die with him. There is still nothing to prove he even received ninjutsu training from his grandfather other than his claims.

So unless someone can trace their roots through to Takamatsu, almost exclusively through Hatsumi, or provide documentation back to Koga or intercepting Iga prior to Takamatsu they are selling a lie, either knowingly or unknowingly. This is a known fact as the Koga and Iga traditions are the ONLY traces of ninjutsu ever mentioned in Japanese history.

Not to perpetuate an argument, but to clarify historical fact. The study of ninjutsu is more than learning stealth and how to make blinding powders. I know the Genbukan still teaches ninjutsu and the Bujinkan dedicates an entire year to each of the arts of ninjutsu in cycles. So yes they are teaching ninjutsu, they just aren’t going into depth with the “secret” teachings that are normally reserved for the select few students in line for menkyo kaiden.

Thanks for the happy birthday by the way, just another day at work though.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299277 - 07/08/08 02:14 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
That is unfortunate that you had to work, what kind of job is it? I think you misunderstand me, I am not talking about public teachers that sell their information by way of dojo fees, videos or such. It still may be possible that there are unknown practitioners of the unaltered art, though they may include modern technology as Ninjutsu adapts and is not set in stone. I am aware that Ninjutsu is an all-inclusive art, there is everything from astrology to physics, chemistry (in the form of yogen), and especially religion.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299278 - 07/08/08 04:31 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

It still may be possible that there are unknown practitioners of the unaltered art,




Care to offer an example? The reason i ask what system of ninjutsu you study is simple. You claim Bujinkan isn't ninjutsu yet Hatsumi is a major contributer to the exposure of the art. If the Bujinkan isn't ninjutsu even though a good portion of it's foundation is based on the 3 ONLY legitimate systems of ninjutsu then what is? You claim to study ninjutsu, what system? I would love to hear of this "pure" system. Just do me a huge favor and tell me you haven't been taken in by the "Chosonninja". If so i certainly hate to be the one to tell you that he is NOT teaching ninjutsu. Greg Park is a fraud, besides didn't he change the name of his system to DTG Karate after being asked to prove any ties to ninjutsu and not being able to?
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299279 - 07/08/08 07:00 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Bujinkan is Budo Taijutsu. They may use pieces, but they are not a strict Ninjutsu school. As far as the public is concerned, Bujinkan is the leading provider of Ninjutsu based knowledge in the form they provide. Haha I know ChosonNinja is not Ninjutsu, his style is based on hapkido, TKD and karate and has no Ninjutsu derivations. I have seen the tools, weapons and armor stuff he makes, many of which are not correct. Granted, his stuff and knowledge may not be correct in a historical sense, and some in a practicality sense but I do find that teaching the less fortunate is a nice thing and I am sure there are at least a handful of people learning something useful...at worst, it can't be any worse for the people than McDojos which hand blackbelts to children of 10 years of age. haha. I'm not sure, but it seems like you got the impression I have some sort of ace up my sleeve or something. My comments toward the "pure art" thing were no more than mere examples and expressions of possibility. The reason I neglected to answer your question before was that I honestly don't know the roots of what I know and figured that you wouldn't be so adamant to receive an answer. I am not trying to hide that fact, so I am posting it now to avoid confusion later on. If I ever get around to asking, I may choose to shoot you a pm and talk if I find it has any relevance. Interesting discussion though. By the way, "Ninjutsu" heritage or not, what are your thoughts on his DTG in general? Do you find that they help the average person who watches them? Like I said, I don't believe it can replace real training with people, but it is better than nothing, as long as they don't create too many bad habits.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299280 - 07/09/08 03:56 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'll make this as clear and simple as i can. The Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan and their derivative systems are the ONLY systems of legitimate ninjutsu currently in practice today. Their core IS ninjutsu, they all referred to their arts as ninjutsu until recent years but even though they no longer tie them selves to the stigma of the name ninjutsu they all know it is ninjutsu. In fact this years theme in the Bujinkan is Togakure so they are training ninjutsu almost exclusively all this year. With all of the various branches although they do teach other systems in conjunction with the three ninjutsu ryu, they still teach the full arts. They are not "watering down" ninjutsu with other arts, they are teaching them in tandem. Each system however does have it's rules on when and to whom certain things are taught from the syllabus. The main restriction i believe is few if any are issuing menkyo kaiden or even rank in any of the specific 3 arts. Hatsumi stopped issuing grading in any specific art a while back and the only ones allowed to issue rank in a specific ninjutsu system are those who have received menkyo kaiden or at least a teaching license in the specific arts. Make no mistake though Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, Toshindo and Kamiyama Ninpo and all of their derivatives are ALL ninjutsu. If you are studying a form of ninjutsu that isn't derived from Togakure, Gyokushin or Kumogakure you aren't studying legitimate ninjutsu.

As for DTG, garbage. I've watched several of his clips and the techniques are laughable at best. He seems to have good intentions but he is doing more harm than good. You can NOT learn the martial arts by watching videos or reading books. They are good for informational purposes and references only. Training needs to be done with a qualified instructor, in person. They need to be there to correct mistakes, give input, guide and answer questions. With out immediate feed back you can develop bad habits that are much harder to change down the road. It also gives a false sense of security when you start to believe you are doing things correctly and your not. In DTGs case he is pushing VERY impractical techniques as effective self defense, even with personal instruction, in person; most of the techniques i've seen from him are useless. Even if he were teaching highly effective techniques the medium he is using to teach is ineffective and still gives a false sense of security.

I do have a question for you. If you aren't sure of the roots of your system of ninjutsu how are you so sure it's legit and are so adamant that the Bujinkan "isn't ninjutsu"? How long have you been involved in ninjutsu and what is the name of the style? Are you studying from someone or are you going the route of video/self teaching? These questions are pertinent to the discussion because it will give me an idea of the depth of your understanding and ensure you’re not a "fanboy" as you put it.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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