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#298483 - 11/01/06 03:48 PM Challenging in MMA
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The idea of challenging seems pretty outdated to me. I notice that a lot of TMA dont do it anymore. However, theres always MMA guys challenging people. TMA guys or other MMA guys. Put your money where your mouth is seems to be the general attitude.

Is it because of the training differences between MMA and TMA? Many TMA accept there curriculum as the one way, on the other hand MMA guys are constantly challenging and replacing what they learn. Is it the lack of a tradtional dojo setting? The lack of a "Master"?

I also noticed mant of the TMA guys will decline this challenge and MMA guys will say when and where? Is such eagerness to fight a necessity in our training?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298484 - 11/01/06 04:55 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Part of it comes from a healthy "does it work?" attitude that is part and parcel of the MMA ethos. As long as it is not done disrespectfully, I see no problem with it. JKD is (should be ) very much a realization of this attitude.
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#298485 - 11/01/06 05:02 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
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Loc: Ms
I agree. however, this is often considered disrespectful, especially by the TMA guys.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298486 - 11/01/06 05:12 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

...this is often considered disrespectful, especially by the TMA guys.





There may be reasons for why that is....

Regardless, I don't see a problem with challenges at all. So long as people can agree to a specific rules structure and the challenge is made and accepted in a friendly manner, knock yourselves out I say.


-John

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#298487 - 11/01/06 05:15 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Well, lets hear these reasons. Thats what im trying to understand. Is it solely due to the training differences or the differences in how that information is exchanged? Is it because of the philosophies and etiquette and tradtionalism or the lack thereof?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298488 - 11/01/06 05:35 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
These days many of the practitioners of MMA are guys in their 20's to 30's who have an athletic and competitive background. This was the demographic of TMA practitioners 20, 30, even 40 years ago in the US. When young men out to prove themselves change their art of choice then those behaviors follow.

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#298489 - 11/01/06 05:37 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Is it really so simple? Just a style change away?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298490 - 11/01/06 06:03 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
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Chen

I think that is a flawed question--as it frames things poorly.

I see no evidence that it "the way things are" at all.

Plus I see no evidence that MMA are willing to accpet "challenges" in general--some certainly do--but certainly not "all" or even "most."

Heck, I bet you can't prove "many."

Its a sure bet the "pro's" WON'T--Chuck Liddel would just laugh at me if I "challanged" him.
He has waaaaayyyy to much to lose if he accedently breaks his hand on my face or slips in my blood and hurts his knee.

Plus, there is, as I see it, a huge difference in outlook being expressed here.

I don't train to get "challanged" to go mano-a-mano with some idiot who stumbles into my practice and wants to "go."

I train to defend myself vs a violent attack.
When I can't get away and can't get my gun out or can't get to a weapon useable object.

If its not worth putting a person in the hospital over--killing someone over then it simply is not worth "really" fighting about.

Opinions will vary, but that is my view.

Besides anything less than "really" fghting is going to come down to the rules.
And whomever trains under those rules will have a HUGE advantage.

Can you imagine me pulling a knife during a MMA match??

Hey, under some peoples "rules" the use of weapons is a "given."

To paraphrase a guy I know "I have a good, job, a pretty wife, couple of kids, way too much to risk getting seriously hurt in some stupid match."

So when you ask "why don't TMA accept challanges??" a MUCH BETTER question is:

"Why should we?"


Edited by cxt (11/01/06 06:09 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298491 - 11/01/06 08:58 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

I agree. however, this is often considered disrespectful, especially by the TMA guys.




Calling it disrespectful is just an excuse not to get your ass kicked. If you claim you can fight, you should be willing to back it up. If someone wants to fight you, to test themselves and you, it's not disrespectful.

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#298492 - 11/01/06 09:02 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

He has waaaaayyyy to much to lose if he accedently breaks his hand on my face or slips in my blood and hurts his knee.




He's got a solid contract with the UFC, broken hand would be a minor delay in fighting and could also happen in training. He's not the type to injure himself slipping, he keeps way too good balance. Even if it did happen, this is what allegedly happened between Ortiz and Murray, and it didn't harm Ortiz' carreer or reputation. He wouldn't accept the challenge because there's no point in hurting you, and he's a nice guy. If you deserve to fight him you'd work your way up the ranks into title contention. Otherwise someone else can beat you just the same.

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#298493 - 11/01/06 10:38 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
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Loc: Ms
Cxt,
In response I would say, Why shouldnt you?

At its very core, every art suggests that its way of defense is the best to be offered. If you dont believe your training to be the best you shouldnt be doing it. Thats not directed at you, but to anyone in general. If someone says that they think there way is better and that they want to see if that is the case, why not oblige then? If you training is better, shouldnt you win, showing the other man what he is doing wrong in the process? To me it seems like alot of the TMA guys dont do this because they are afraid to have there art exposed as anything other than superior. MMA guys challenge constantly, maybe not to outsiders but certainly within the gym, as it is the best way to test one's skills.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298494 - 11/01/06 11:28 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Hmm, and all this time I thought that it was an individual who made the art, not the other way around. So if Ray Lewis challenged you to a fight and beat you, you would or should begin training to be an All Pro linebacker so you can defend yourself?

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#298495 - 11/01/06 11:32 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: medulanet]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
more like find out how Ray Lewis beat you in the fight and improve yourself in that manner. If he tackled you to the ground and then started to ground & pound then obviously thats something that you need to pick up on, not his occupation...unless he fights be tackling people constantly.

Well I would say the MMA guys that would challenge are guys who fight in MMA competitions or something similar, as they would carry that fighter mentality with them. I doubt a humble and quiet MMA man would go up to a kungfu master and challenge him, its out of character.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#298496 - 11/01/06 11:43 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Umm, have you ever played ball? He would probably just knock you out with his forearm as if he was trying to stand you up and take on your block. Or maybe he would just body slam you on the concrete head first. Look man, I'm talking about attributes and aggression, not any MMA stuff you have trained. Ray Lewis doesn't need martial arts. Therefore, his pro football is enough to beat most people because of AA, attributes and aggression. But that doesn't mean everyone taking roids and learning how to hit is the answer. So just because someone beats you does not mean his training is NECESSARILY going to make you better.

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#298497 - 11/02/06 12:10 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im not implying that it would. However, i believe it would force you to take a hard, unbiased look at what you are doing and where you need improvement.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298498 - 11/02/06 12:35 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, looking at what you do critically to continually improve is a good thing. I do this in my own art regardless of anyone challenging me. Maybe you are right and those who do not do need to be challenged and have some sense knocked into them.

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#298499 - 11/02/06 04:22 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: medulanet]
billyg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Umm, have you ever played ball? He would probably just knock you out with his forearm as if he was trying to stand you up and take on your block. Or maybe he would just body slam you on the concrete head first. Look man, I'm talking about attributes and aggression, not any MMA stuff you have trained. Ray Lewis doesn't need martial arts. Therefore, his pro football is enough to beat most people because of AA, attributes and aggression. But that doesn't mean everyone taking roids and learning how to hit is the answer. So just because someone beats you does not mean his training is NECESSARILY going to make you better.



Ray Lewis might not need martial arts but surely the techniques he would use in a fight should have counters somewhere in the T.M.A world? I think if a pro footballer could beat a trained fighter then the trained fighter isnt that well trained and should consider training the same way as the person who beat him.

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#298500 - 11/02/06 07:28 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: billyg]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Lets not forget what this is about.

It's a simple challenge to fight. That doesn't mean to the death or even severe injury. Whatever people agree to is acceptable don't you think?

I still don't think there is a big deal about accepting a challenge to fight another person from another discipline or even the same discipline. If two able-bodied and willing adults enjoy the contact and competition, there should be nothing to stop them - providing that there is an agreed upon structure to the challenge (rules, or lack thereof, and refs or what-have-you).

Nothing STUPID like a duel with weapons for Christ's sake. There ARE a lot of idiots out there and some are reading this probably.

If one person doesn't accept a challenge from another, I don't see that as a big deal either. It doesn't mean you're a coward. It could simply mean that you choose not to fight. Maybe the challenger is an idiot with an ego problem and you'd rather not even get involved. That's totally understandable.

People get into martial arts training for a variety of reasons. Not every one of us is "hard-core". You don't have to be to enjoy what training has to offer.

Almost EVERYONE trains for some measure of self-defense skill however. I would only hope that those who ARE training for self-defense, do engage in some manner of hard sparring occasionally so as to fully understand what fighting is like. I believe that's only common sense.

Challenges aren't necessary in order to immerse yourself in harder training however. So long as you do so at least occasionally within your own schools/gym should be sufficient.

That said, stepping out against other stylists for those willing to do so is a great learning experience that can't be simulated any other way.

At the end of the day, its up to the individual.


-John

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#298501 - 11/02/06 08:27 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
I agree with John here. Alot of martial artist are scared to get there butts handed to them so they can learn also alot of so called "masters" get beat in matter of seconds because they never train to handle full out aggression from an opponent. They are simply comforable being the top dawg of their "dojo" and are scared to come down off their pedestal to be showed where their weakness are.

Why do you think MT/boxing and BJJ or wrestling is the major styles of MMA. It is because these back grounds are hardcore aggressive styles pound for pound. So to me I think challenge matches are a great thing due to circumstance. Things should be looked at:

1: Don't challenge me during my class disrupting it.

2: I will find some information/background about the challenger. Think about an xcon newly released wanting to test out some new muscle he packed on in the slammer.....

3: Like John said it should be controled structured and have witnesses just incase also waivers are a must.

Brandon
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#298502 - 11/02/06 12:07 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
migo

To bad there is not a "heavy handed sarcasm icon" sounds like I need one here because you missed my point utterly.

I can "challange" Chick Liddel all I want---he not going to do anything but laugh.

So if the "pros" DON'T take challanges from every yahoo that wanders near them---why "should" anyone else??
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298503 - 11/02/06 12:26 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I think the pro's dont because they Know that they are upper tier fighters. they already know they are on top. Your average karateka or MMA practitioner isnt ranked worldwide so to get a scope of where he is at training wise, he fights and challenges.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298504 - 11/02/06 12:31 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chen

Sorry Chen, "Why shouldn't you" ISN'T a "reason."

Look at it from a resonable perspective.

1-I already told you why "I" train--I see no reason to "really" fight if I'm not "really" in danger.
Put me in a situation where I'm seriously in fear of my life--and if I can, I'll put 2 rounds stright to center mass.
That is as "real" as it gets----but my guess is that is waaay to "real" for most folks.

2-I seriously disagree with your posit that "at its core every art suggest that its way of defense is the best offered."

I don't feel that way at all.

Don't know anyone that does.

Speaking personally ANYONE who tells that "their way is best" is flat out lying to you.
There is NO "best" way.
"My" way is just one of MANY ways, the very exsistance of so many methods rather strongly suggests that NO ONE WAY IS "BEST" for all folks.
Like I keep trying to tell people, an art is ONLY as good as the person using it--the art itself is NOTHING without a person to apply its teaching.

3-Like I said before, what are the rules of the match?
In many styles the use of weapons is a given---as a "challanger" are you assumeing that the match is going to be fought "your" way???

4-TMA match "in the school" all the time, just like MMA guys do.
Problem here is a "strawman" where your incorectly "labeling" TMA as "being X" when you have not established if "X" is correct.

5-The whole "challange" mano-a-mano thing is what young folks are interested in, most folks go thu that stage and simply outgrow it.

6-The pro's don't take challanges because its a BUSINESS--and pro's don't fight for FREE.

Like I said before, why should I be willing accpet some yahoo's "challange?"

Whats in it for me?

If the pro's don't fight for free--why should I??

Seriously--what is in it for me?

I actually have a pretty good story about just this situation I saw in a buddies school about 5 years ago.

If your interested I'll post it.


Edited by cxt (11/02/06 12:34 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298505 - 11/02/06 12:43 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
While I agree that shooting is obviously the easiest way out, that isnt always an option. If its always an option, then why even bother learning how to punch when all you need is a steady hand and quick trigger finger.

And I dont think my statement about an art suggesting superiority is off. Why is a style created? Because there was inadequacies in what came before it. A style is created by its founder, because he believes that its the best available methods at the time. Now you can say that its down to the artist, and thats mostly true. However, if Im training something that one day might have my life on the line, it would be foolish for me to train it if I didnt think it was the best way. If i thought there were better ways to do what Im doing now, Id switch, because my LIFE could possibly DEPEND on it later.

As for rules, who really cares? I know some guys dont want to get hit hard, or dont want to fight on the ground or against weapons. However, life doesnt always present these options. To me its all about realism and it can get as real as someone wants to go. If I lose, its because of my training. Also, If i lose I have to question my training and see where I was bested and improve upon that. Thats whats in it for you, not some macho BS. As for labeling TMA, Ive been there. I was a TMA guy for some time before recognizing the flaws in the system and changing my routine greatly. I think if any artist out there is serious about self defense then he MUST be able to test that against aggresive pressure in order to validate what it is he is doing and to improve upon any weak areas.
And please, if you like, post your story. perhaps then I can better relate what Im saying here.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298506 - 11/02/06 01:06 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chen

I disagree, I feel that "most" styles are created to serve the needs of specifc people in specific cultural situations.

What they do has value, or its seen as having value so other people learn what they teach and in the main it works well for them---so they pass it down and so on.

The "old timers" were often cross trainers--studied a number of different styles before they had something that worked for THEM.
So they passed down a set of training and skills that allowed them to be successful.

Depending on a given persons OWN mental/physical/emotional strengths and weakness what "I" teach may work great or it may not.

If it works then people don't change it much---if it does not then they make changes based upon THEM.

I'll grant you that people often "feel" that certian arts are somehow lacking--but most of the time its just a personal opinion.

You may "belive" that its "the best" I simple don't belive that.

In my opinion there is no "best" art, only arts that some folks are "better" at.
I tend to seperate the person from their art.
Man wins or loses--its a more about THEM and less about what art they train in.

Like I said, you want to see how "I" handle myself in a serious situation--all you need to do is seriously attack me, of course that may just get you killed.

I guess my question is "how badly do you "really" want to find out?"
And what good is that information going to do you with a couple of slugs in your chest.?

See, from my perspective what your talking about is a fantasy, a game people want to play--as long as it NEVER get too serious--you know where they end up seriously injured or dead.

Your still doing the whole "strawman" thing.

TMA ISN'T a "system" its MANY dozens of SEPERATE, discrite, individual systems all over the planet.

The is no "flaws' in TMA because there are many, very different TMA--they all may have flaws--just all can't be flawed in the same way.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298507 - 11/02/06 01:20 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chen

Story.

I assume that were talking about actual people walking into schools and challanging people to more or less full contact anything goes kind of things.

If were not, then this makes little sense. Sorry

Guy walks in off the street and wants to join IF the teacher can "really" beat him in a match--cause there no point in studing there if he can't beat him.

Teacher looks at the dude--he's 35-40 the "challager" is maybe 20-25.

I have to paraphrase here.

"Ok, I'm older, shorter, but more muscular I got 3 problems.

1-I have 20 years of training I should win.

But if I do then I'm a jerk for beating up a guy thats smaller, younger and with less experience.

2-Say we tie?

I look like a jerk for not being able to beat a smaller, less expereinced guy.
I lose students, I lose money.
You'll tell everyone you know that I couldn't beat you, I lose MORE students and MORE money.

3-You might beat me, I look like a jerk, and REALLY lose my students respect, I really lose money and you'll STILL tell everyone you know you beat me so I'll lose EVEN MORE money.

I risk everything--you risk nothing.

Thats not fair at all.

So I tell you what, you go out get the pink slip to your car, sign it over to me--IF I win, with all the students here as witnesses.

What do you say?"

Guy looked at him like he was insane--then left without a word.

That is the only time I have every seen anyone "really" walk into a school and "challange" the teacher.

I even gave teacher some crap about it.

Told him "If your confident in your skills--why not prove it?"

His answer?

"If I'm confident in my skills---why not use them to get a free car?
Besides hes the one without confidence in his skills--if was that sure--he has no reason NOT to bet his car now does he?"

Always remembered that.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298508 - 11/02/06 01:28 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
*pops neck and prepares for battle*

First, Cultural emphasis. Like TKD doing high kicks to dismount horse riding soldiers? I buy it a little. Sure, your culture and area is going to affect how you compose your system. However, like you stated, many of these "Masters" trained elsewhere, so how much cultural emphasis is there when you begin to take on things from other systems and cultures? Why add these to your system unless you are striving to make it better, or the best? If you were truly worried about only certain situations rather than self defense on a whole you wouldnt do it.

Also when teaching, surely your weaknesses will show through but I dont think they are solely responsible for a students success. Each student has his own set of strengths or weaknesses and also his own interpretation of what is laid out before him. He has as much to do with his learning as I do. Perhaps more.

And people are always going to say certain arts are lacking. They must if they hope to improve upon them. And, rather people choose to believe it, many arts are incomplete. This is especially evident in the older arts. When your system lacks a ground game for instance, its not a feeling, its truly incomplete. And yes, Each TMA is individual from every other. But I venture to say that more of them are incomplete than complete(able to effectively cover each range).

Also, making a challenge isnt always about seeing how well "you" can handle things but rather how can "I" handle situations that vary from what i am normally up against. Its variety. The desire to be able to adapt and work well in any situation.

As far as feeling that your art is the best, I think this is something that many practitioners are lacking. To me its unfortunate. If you dont feel that it serves your purposes best why do it and trust that it will work when your life is on the line? Im of the opinion that if you are 100 percent confident in your art then I have you beat. Im believe wholeheartedly in what I do, therefor I will not hesitate, I will not waver, I will not stop. If you dont believe, then you very well might hesitate, wondering if this is going to work. This may cause your movements to faulter, your morale to change and even possibly affect your whole strategy. It could easliy cost someone the fight. If you cant put your faith in your art to save your life or your loved ones when you need it, move on to something that you think will.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298509 - 11/02/06 02:15 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chen

Nah, that story is pure-d-crap.

Just like the one about karate being develeoped by Okinawan peasents to defeat sword armed samurai.

Also pure-d-crap.

As I see it the "weakness" is in the person--not the style.

What people precive as "weakness" is just stuff they can't get to work.

No, the student is at least as responsible for their success or faliure as the teacher is.

You have to willing to do the work, you have to be smart enough to apply the lesson and you have to be ready to be taught.

The pro's call it "coachablity."

And without it your sunk.

A teacher has to able to impart the lessons, has to be able to understand his student and be able to guide them thu the training.

Its a group effort, if your not willing or able to do YOUR part then you'll probably fail.
If the teacher/coach is unwilling or unable to do THIER part them you'll probably fail.

Cultural part is where the art comes from.

The older Japanese arts "lacked a gound game" because they were battlefield arts--and "going to the ground" in pitched battle will get you killed.

In THAT context--not a "useful" skill so they didn't practice it much.
Mainly they practiced how to get back up FAST if knocked down.

Plus the assumption is that EVERONE was packing a knife, and if you have an arm free you going to stab them to death, MOST current MMA practices assume YOUR NOT armed.

See the system is not "really" lacking--its the PERCEPTION that's "off."

You could just as easily say that the "normal" MMA appracoh is "incomplete" because it lacks any sort of weapons training.

Take an art outside of its culture and what it was designed for--you get serious mistakes in terms of how its viewed.

I trust my art because when I really needed it--it worked.

End of story.

I got/get pushed HARD when I train, everyone I know trains had, so I have no experience with folks that don't.

Outside of a McDojo that is.

Glad you have faith in your training--hopefully you'll never have to find out if you right about it.

Hopefully---I mean thay seriously.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298510 - 11/02/06 02:15 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

*pops neck and prepares for battle*




LMAO. Chen and cxt =
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#298511 - 11/02/06 02:32 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I didnt really think the horse suggestion was really accurate, I just mentioned it to make sure I was getting the general gist of your post. Ando so karate didnt have grappling 500 YEARS AGO, because of there battlefeild conditions, yet that isnt the REALITY now. Therefore leading one such as i to believe it is incomplete due to its inability or unwillingness to adapt to the times. Its not that I dont UNDERSTAND the art, I simply see its weakness for what it is.

If you take your art outside of its cultural function and it fails then your art has failed you my friend. I dont depend on the ideology of a thousand years ago in my training. If there is a cultural influence on my art, its a present day emphasis. And MMA does due weapons. I do anyways. Knife and stick. I shoot too though my gym doesnt teach it.
If your training held up, then congratulations, you're doing something right. Im glad that we can have conversations like these.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298512 - 11/02/06 02:55 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually the classical karate practiced today was the art of bodyguards to the king, not of the battlefield. And it was developed in the 1800s by Matsumura. The act of being a bodyguard did entail wrestling to a certain degree. Especially the act of entangling an opponent and disabling him while the king escaped. Guarding the king was a job in which you had to be prepared to sacrifice your well being for your regent.

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#298513 - 11/02/06 03:03 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chen

No, I know that dude, I was just kidding around--plus I HATE those kinds of myths.

I was talking about JJ--not karate, karate was not a battlefield art--and it did/does have grappleing.

Maybe not the gullitine choke--but grappling there is.

See, that is the problem here, you have "your" reality and I have "mine."
What is the "reality" of training, in my opinion, comes down to what is "real" and practical and useful for individual people---and most everybody is different.

I disagree, you can take kung fu from the wastes of northern china nd if your trained right--and your any good at it--it works just fine in the bars of LA.
You can take silet from the streets of Indonisa and it works fine on some creep from New York--if you are any good at it.

The problems with culture are mainly perceptual ones-- in which people do not really understand the whats and whys of the art--they try and "see" it thu glasses that often don't fit.

So rather than going "oh, ok, NOW I get it" they are left with the impression that something is all "wrong."

I'm sure that you do--I was using the term MMA in is "mormal" context, of UFC/Pride etc type traing.
Since this is the JKD forum--I'll have to be more accurate

If there is nothing wrong with the "1000 year old ideology" then why not "depend on it???"

What exactly is worng with the ideology?

Just cause its old does not make "bad"---I mean most grappling techinuqes we do today were well known to the greeks well over 1000 years ago--the seem to work just fine today.

Outside of firearms--what is "really" that different--people still have 2 arms and 2 legs, a punch is punch--weither its thrown in 1620 or 2007.

(and nothing beats the gun)

I mean sure we have much better health and better weight training etc--but all that goes to the person---does not mean the "ideology" is wrong at all.

When people say "unwillingness to adapt to the times" I honestly have little understanding of what they actually mean by that.

Again, other than the ready avalaiblity of firearms--what has really, substantivly changed??

A punch is punch, a kick is a kick and lock is still a lock.


Edited by cxt (11/02/06 03:07 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298514 - 11/02/06 04:25 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm all up for reasonable challenges with respectable people.

Idiots can walk.....
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#298515 - 11/02/06 10:55 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

migo

To bad there is not a "heavy handed sarcasm icon" sounds like I need one here because you missed my point utterly.

I can "challange" Chick Liddel all I want---he not going to do anything but laugh.

So if the "pros" DON'T take challanges from every yahoo that wanders near them---why "should" anyone else??




I know you were joking, I just thought you used a bad example.

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#298516 - 11/03/06 11:11 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
migo

Sorry, but in context, its a VERY good example.

Why should "I" with a good day job, "wife and kids", be any more willing to take a "challange" from some yahoo, than a professional fighter would?

Not being a wealthy pro, I have much more to lose if I get hurt.
Whose going to pay my bills? Whose going to work my shift? Whose going to talk to the clients if my nose is busted or my face is all beat up?

Plus, to use your OWN example, since I have no way of knowing if the yahoo that wandered into my practice has "proved" himself or not--why should he get a "shot?"
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298517 - 11/03/06 01:31 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Professional fighters have the luxury of consent and choice as to when and where they use their skills. That being said, the journey to become a Pro is filled with challenges where one is required to demonstrate their skills under various circumstances.

The over riding question(s) is/are "Who is the best?" and "Am I/ Can I be up there too?". How better to find out than to engage in dangerous challenges to test courage, heart and skill?

Many people don't need this. But some do for some reason. In any case, MMA will always have the ruffian appearance that "more refined" martial arts people will always disdain for their own "reasons".
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#298518 - 11/04/06 02:06 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Perhaps the real problem TMA guys have with MMA's claims of being superior, because right now those are te only guys who claim they are better is the MMA cats not the TMA. TMA's have quietly been put in their place regarding the effectiveness of their training methods.

But if you really wanted to see who was better between an MMA man and TMA man all things being consider with genetics and each respective training; the match would have to be to the death. As a TMA man trains for more subtle attacks which he considers lethal and MMA trains for more obvious attack such as breaking a limb rather than trying to detatch an eye. Well at least the popular MMA guys train in ground jujutsu while the JKD guys train in similar traditional techniques. Which ofcouse why many of the JKD people do not spar compared to their MMA/grappling counterparts.

Well this are just my thoughts, let me know what you all think.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298519 - 11/04/06 03:08 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: TeK9]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
There are MMA guys who'd do death matches. They wouldn't kill the TMA guy, they'd just beat him senseless.

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#298520 - 11/04/06 09:37 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Tek9 wrote
Quote:


But if you really wanted to see who was better between an MMA man and TMA man all things being consider with genetics and each respective training; the match would have to be to the death. As a TMA man trains for more subtle attacks which he considers lethal and MMA trains for more obvious attack such as breaking a limb rather than trying to detach an eye.





I just disagree with this for a whole host of reasons. This statement made right here is based on a false premise.

One premise is, the “TMA guy” only trains for combat and the MMA guy doesn’t or, for some reason, cannot “be combative” when the chips are down. That this would somehow be in the TMA guy’s favor is nothing but an assumption. I would argue that the person with the great ability to “perform” would usually end up “victorious” (hate using that term in this situation). It can be argued that because you don’t actually PRACTICE going into the eye, that all predictions based on such attacks of the resulting outcome are, “pure fantasy” and more assumption.

Assumptions can really be bad for your “health” in terms of fighting and fight training.


Another premise is that the “obvious attacks such as limb breaking, etc”., are less effective than trying to detach an eye. I disagree with this notion. In my opinion, there are three primary ways of ending a fight; head trauma (blunt force), structural damage (joint locking/breaking) and loss of consciousness (choke, etc).

Notice that list does NOT include the “detachment of eyes”. That is for several reasons. People can and have fought when blinded. If you are fighting ME for example, you had better do a lot more to me than just take my eye (which is exceedingly difficult). In fact if you are even ATTEMPTING to do so, I will fight even harder than I normally would. Wouldn’t anyone?


Quote:


Well at least the popular MMA guys train in ground jujutsu while the JKD guys train in similar traditional techniques. Which is of course why many of the JKD people do not spar compared to their MMA/grappling counterparts.





So what you’re saying is that sparring is BAD?

Are you also saying that MMA people only train ground fighting techniques?

Please share your opinions with us.


-John

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#298521 - 11/22/06 01:59 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
If I may add a dimension to this, challenges do not always have to be physical confrontations.

I'm an eighteen year-old Kyusho-Jitsu 1rst Dan holder. A DILLMAN Kyusho-Jitsu black belt, no less. More than once I've had to deal with all of the flak that comes with being either a DKI guy or a pressure point guy. And no offense, but they were either a) TKD/a similarly tournament-focused art, or b) a TMA guy who thought they had it figured out.

I'm not trying to join in the previous exchange, I'm just stating that I've effectively been taking from both sides of the MA community. I've been "challenged" plenty of times, verbally and I'm sure one or two of em' wouldn't have mind the physical demonstration.

I would say, the medieval "Outside, NOW!" has been replaced by "You do what? But you know, you could never hit a pressure point in a real fight, right?"

Further, I would say this: If a person can learn martial art of any kind or style AND be effective, is there style at all?

Further, I do believe the change in times adds to something somehow. Karate is no longer used in as much guerrila-warfare against armed and angsty Japanese invaders or to guard the king. Sure, the CONCEPTS never change, but I do believe practicing martial art as they did way back when isn't quite the way either. technically, didn't some kata evolve out fo the fact that the Okinawans could exactly train in broad daylight in front of everyone, or engage in regular Kumite at first?

I'm not saying TMA are bad, but I believe it is the CONCEPTS that survived time, not the exact training methods and techniques.

And, from those techniques we have all of the modern-day martial arts. So, that much can be said for Traditonal systems.

All in all, I think we all need to engage in more this:

...and less:
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#298522 - 11/22/06 11:16 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The reasons that TMA don't challenge each other as much as MMA guys, or anymore is bc we learned that it ain't worth the lost teeth or broken cheek bone or hospital stay.

#1. MMA is relatively new happening 10yrs r so and its mostly physical system that is base on compeitiveness.

#2 MMA has safety clauses (thin) gloves or boxing gloves or no strikes whatever known rules.

#3 MMA is BJJ based not all but some and they stress challenging and competitiveness. Even within the famous Gracie clan knew who was the best fighter was among them.

#4. Most Instructors that lived through the 1960-1970s in USA saw what challenging another person or school got cha. The Red Dragon vs. Tangs dojo on the east coast in the 1960s a couple of Instructor dead and others disfigured. The Roger Carpenter/Kenpo vs. TKD man. Carpenters wicked use of knees and elbows used to bloodly disfigure and mauled opponent. Me see my head Instructior Rodrick snachting my Instructors Mike's Plastic eye out, women screaming and people stunned, bc of rank he didn't issue. Rank from Cross training after the bout he was able to retain his CT Rank. Giving as good as he got almost.

In most trad dojos if you challenge you must fight by the challenged person rules. If he's skilled with the bo and you are not, you have to fight empty hand or bow out.

Its all part of growing pain for a method, Trad schools are still challenged but rather then two Instructors fighting they visit each others dojo and the students/methods duke it out. Sometimes once a bonds been made both proven system the Instructors train together and duke it out empty hand and with weapons. Some even mimick you MMAs or JKD guys fighting at all ranges. Its just done respectable no need to do it in front of a crowd. None but the boldest would challenge while another Instructors with students around. This bring about his choice of fighting could be bare fisted or Katana!!! Not likely but it could be.

BC of this I will never challenge another Instructor and I teach this, even as weak as Tourney guys seems to be theres room for all methods of training.


Edited by Neko456 (11/22/06 11:56 AM)
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#298523 - 11/22/06 09:33 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Neko456]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
If I may, I do think Mr. Neko does bring up an interesting point: The MMA, again much like my example fo being a Dillman guy, are relatively young and in some cases skirt or in extreme scoff at most traditional methods of technique/training.

TMA(as with most MAs) being the proud and proud of the art sort that they are, generally dislike that, and some have very choice words for said "antithisestablishmentarianistic" views. Which in tunr, can ellict "You wanna go?" from the MMA guy. But, this can only irratate the TMA guy, since he was brought up with the oral tradition of when challenging really MEANT something serious, and was usually until someone stopped breathing.

So again, I thik we all need to:

...and not:
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"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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