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#298513 - 11/02/06 03:03 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Chen

No, I know that dude, I was just kidding around--plus I HATE those kinds of myths.

I was talking about JJ--not karate, karate was not a battlefield art--and it did/does have grappleing.

Maybe not the gullitine choke--but grappling there is.

See, that is the problem here, you have "your" reality and I have "mine."
What is the "reality" of training, in my opinion, comes down to what is "real" and practical and useful for individual people---and most everybody is different.

I disagree, you can take kung fu from the wastes of northern china nd if your trained right--and your any good at it--it works just fine in the bars of LA.
You can take silet from the streets of Indonisa and it works fine on some creep from New York--if you are any good at it.

The problems with culture are mainly perceptual ones-- in which people do not really understand the whats and whys of the art--they try and "see" it thu glasses that often don't fit.

So rather than going "oh, ok, NOW I get it" they are left with the impression that something is all "wrong."

I'm sure that you do--I was using the term MMA in is "mormal" context, of UFC/Pride etc type traing.
Since this is the JKD forum--I'll have to be more accurate

If there is nothing wrong with the "1000 year old ideology" then why not "depend on it???"

What exactly is worng with the ideology?

Just cause its old does not make "bad"---I mean most grappling techinuqes we do today were well known to the greeks well over 1000 years ago--the seem to work just fine today.

Outside of firearms--what is "really" that different--people still have 2 arms and 2 legs, a punch is punch--weither its thrown in 1620 or 2007.

(and nothing beats the gun)

I mean sure we have much better health and better weight training etc--but all that goes to the person---does not mean the "ideology" is wrong at all.

When people say "unwillingness to adapt to the times" I honestly have little understanding of what they actually mean by that.

Again, other than the ready avalaiblity of firearms--what has really, substantivly changed??

A punch is punch, a kick is a kick and lock is still a lock.


Edited by cxt (11/02/06 03:07 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298514 - 11/02/06 04:25 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm all up for reasonable challenges with respectable people.

Idiots can walk.....
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#298515 - 11/02/06 10:55 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

migo

To bad there is not a "heavy handed sarcasm icon" sounds like I need one here because you missed my point utterly.

I can "challange" Chick Liddel all I want---he not going to do anything but laugh.

So if the "pros" DON'T take challanges from every yahoo that wanders near them---why "should" anyone else??




I know you were joking, I just thought you used a bad example.

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#298516 - 11/03/06 11:11 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
migo

Sorry, but in context, its a VERY good example.

Why should "I" with a good day job, "wife and kids", be any more willing to take a "challange" from some yahoo, than a professional fighter would?

Not being a wealthy pro, I have much more to lose if I get hurt.
Whose going to pay my bills? Whose going to work my shift? Whose going to talk to the clients if my nose is busted or my face is all beat up?

Plus, to use your OWN example, since I have no way of knowing if the yahoo that wandered into my practice has "proved" himself or not--why should he get a "shot?"
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#298517 - 11/03/06 01:31 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Professional fighters have the luxury of consent and choice as to when and where they use their skills. That being said, the journey to become a Pro is filled with challenges where one is required to demonstrate their skills under various circumstances.

The over riding question(s) is/are "Who is the best?" and "Am I/ Can I be up there too?". How better to find out than to engage in dangerous challenges to test courage, heart and skill?

Many people don't need this. But some do for some reason. In any case, MMA will always have the ruffian appearance that "more refined" martial arts people will always disdain for their own "reasons".
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#298518 - 11/04/06 02:06 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Perhaps the real problem TMA guys have with MMA's claims of being superior, because right now those are te only guys who claim they are better is the MMA cats not the TMA. TMA's have quietly been put in their place regarding the effectiveness of their training methods.

But if you really wanted to see who was better between an MMA man and TMA man all things being consider with genetics and each respective training; the match would have to be to the death. As a TMA man trains for more subtle attacks which he considers lethal and MMA trains for more obvious attack such as breaking a limb rather than trying to detatch an eye. Well at least the popular MMA guys train in ground jujutsu while the JKD guys train in similar traditional techniques. Which ofcouse why many of the JKD people do not spar compared to their MMA/grappling counterparts.

Well this are just my thoughts, let me know what you all think.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298519 - 11/04/06 03:08 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: TeK9]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
There are MMA guys who'd do death matches. They wouldn't kill the TMA guy, they'd just beat him senseless.

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#298520 - 11/04/06 09:37 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Tek9 wrote
Quote:


But if you really wanted to see who was better between an MMA man and TMA man all things being consider with genetics and each respective training; the match would have to be to the death. As a TMA man trains for more subtle attacks which he considers lethal and MMA trains for more obvious attack such as breaking a limb rather than trying to detach an eye.





I just disagree with this for a whole host of reasons. This statement made right here is based on a false premise.

One premise is, the “TMA guy” only trains for combat and the MMA guy doesn’t or, for some reason, cannot “be combative” when the chips are down. That this would somehow be in the TMA guy’s favor is nothing but an assumption. I would argue that the person with the great ability to “perform” would usually end up “victorious” (hate using that term in this situation). It can be argued that because you don’t actually PRACTICE going into the eye, that all predictions based on such attacks of the resulting outcome are, “pure fantasy” and more assumption.

Assumptions can really be bad for your “health” in terms of fighting and fight training.


Another premise is that the “obvious attacks such as limb breaking, etc”., are less effective than trying to detach an eye. I disagree with this notion. In my opinion, there are three primary ways of ending a fight; head trauma (blunt force), structural damage (joint locking/breaking) and loss of consciousness (choke, etc).

Notice that list does NOT include the “detachment of eyes”. That is for several reasons. People can and have fought when blinded. If you are fighting ME for example, you had better do a lot more to me than just take my eye (which is exceedingly difficult). In fact if you are even ATTEMPTING to do so, I will fight even harder than I normally would. Wouldn’t anyone?


Quote:


Well at least the popular MMA guys train in ground jujutsu while the JKD guys train in similar traditional techniques. Which is of course why many of the JKD people do not spar compared to their MMA/grappling counterparts.





So what you’re saying is that sparring is BAD?

Are you also saying that MMA people only train ground fighting techniques?

Please share your opinions with us.


-John

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#298521 - 11/22/06 01:59 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
If I may add a dimension to this, challenges do not always have to be physical confrontations.

I'm an eighteen year-old Kyusho-Jitsu 1rst Dan holder. A DILLMAN Kyusho-Jitsu black belt, no less. More than once I've had to deal with all of the flak that comes with being either a DKI guy or a pressure point guy. And no offense, but they were either a) TKD/a similarly tournament-focused art, or b) a TMA guy who thought they had it figured out.

I'm not trying to join in the previous exchange, I'm just stating that I've effectively been taking from both sides of the MA community. I've been "challenged" plenty of times, verbally and I'm sure one or two of em' wouldn't have mind the physical demonstration.

I would say, the medieval "Outside, NOW!" has been replaced by "You do what? But you know, you could never hit a pressure point in a real fight, right?"

Further, I would say this: If a person can learn martial art of any kind or style AND be effective, is there style at all?

Further, I do believe the change in times adds to something somehow. Karate is no longer used in as much guerrila-warfare against armed and angsty Japanese invaders or to guard the king. Sure, the CONCEPTS never change, but I do believe practicing martial art as they did way back when isn't quite the way either. technically, didn't some kata evolve out fo the fact that the Okinawans could exactly train in broad daylight in front of everyone, or engage in regular Kumite at first?

I'm not saying TMA are bad, but I believe it is the CONCEPTS that survived time, not the exact training methods and techniques.

And, from those techniques we have all of the modern-day martial arts. So, that much can be said for Traditonal systems.

All in all, I think we all need to engage in more this:

...and less:
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#298522 - 11/22/06 11:16 AM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The reasons that TMA don't challenge each other as much as MMA guys, or anymore is bc we learned that it ain't worth the lost teeth or broken cheek bone or hospital stay.

#1. MMA is relatively new happening 10yrs r so and its mostly physical system that is base on compeitiveness.

#2 MMA has safety clauses (thin) gloves or boxing gloves or no strikes whatever known rules.

#3 MMA is BJJ based not all but some and they stress challenging and competitiveness. Even within the famous Gracie clan knew who was the best fighter was among them.

#4. Most Instructors that lived through the 1960-1970s in USA saw what challenging another person or school got cha. The Red Dragon vs. Tangs dojo on the east coast in the 1960s a couple of Instructor dead and others disfigured. The Roger Carpenter/Kenpo vs. TKD man. Carpenters wicked use of knees and elbows used to bloodly disfigure and mauled opponent. Me see my head Instructior Rodrick snachting my Instructors Mike's Plastic eye out, women screaming and people stunned, bc of rank he didn't issue. Rank from Cross training after the bout he was able to retain his CT Rank. Giving as good as he got almost.

In most trad dojos if you challenge you must fight by the challenged person rules. If he's skilled with the bo and you are not, you have to fight empty hand or bow out.

Its all part of growing pain for a method, Trad schools are still challenged but rather then two Instructors fighting they visit each others dojo and the students/methods duke it out. Sometimes once a bonds been made both proven system the Instructors train together and duke it out empty hand and with weapons. Some even mimick you MMAs or JKD guys fighting at all ranges. Its just done respectable no need to do it in front of a crowd. None but the boldest would challenge while another Instructors with students around. This bring about his choice of fighting could be bare fisted or Katana!!! Not likely but it could be.

BC of this I will never challenge another Instructor and I teach this, even as weak as Tourney guys seems to be theres room for all methods of training.


Edited by Neko456 (11/22/06 11:56 AM)
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