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#298503 - 11/02/06 12:26 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Happy Birthday Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I think the pro's dont because they Know that they are upper tier fighters. they already know they are on top. Your average karateka or MMA practitioner isnt ranked worldwide so to get a scope of where he is at training wise, he fights and challenges.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#298504 - 11/02/06 12:31 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5829
Loc: USA

Sorry Chen, "Why shouldn't you" ISN'T a "reason."

Look at it from a resonable perspective.

1-I already told you why "I" train--I see no reason to "really" fight if I'm not "really" in danger.
Put me in a situation where I'm seriously in fear of my life--and if I can, I'll put 2 rounds stright to center mass.
That is as "real" as it gets----but my guess is that is waaay to "real" for most folks.

2-I seriously disagree with your posit that "at its core every art suggest that its way of defense is the best offered."

I don't feel that way at all.

Don't know anyone that does.

Speaking personally ANYONE who tells that "their way is best" is flat out lying to you.
There is NO "best" way.
"My" way is just one of MANY ways, the very exsistance of so many methods rather strongly suggests that NO ONE WAY IS "BEST" for all folks.
Like I keep trying to tell people, an art is ONLY as good as the person using it--the art itself is NOTHING without a person to apply its teaching.

3-Like I said before, what are the rules of the match?
In many styles the use of weapons is a given---as a "challanger" are you assumeing that the match is going to be fought "your" way???

4-TMA match "in the school" all the time, just like MMA guys do.
Problem here is a "strawman" where your incorectly "labeling" TMA as "being X" when you have not established if "X" is correct.

5-The whole "challange" mano-a-mano thing is what young folks are interested in, most folks go thu that stage and simply outgrow it.

6-The pro's don't take challanges because its a BUSINESS--and pro's don't fight for FREE.

Like I said before, why should I be willing accpet some yahoo's "challange?"

Whats in it for me?

If the pro's don't fight for free--why should I??

Seriously--what is in it for me?

I actually have a pretty good story about just this situation I saw in a buddies school about 5 years ago.

If your interested I'll post it.

Edited by cxt (11/02/06 12:34 PM)
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#298505 - 11/02/06 12:43 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Happy Birthday Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
While I agree that shooting is obviously the easiest way out, that isnt always an option. If its always an option, then why even bother learning how to punch when all you need is a steady hand and quick trigger finger.

And I dont think my statement about an art suggesting superiority is off. Why is a style created? Because there was inadequacies in what came before it. A style is created by its founder, because he believes that its the best available methods at the time. Now you can say that its down to the artist, and thats mostly true. However, if Im training something that one day might have my life on the line, it would be foolish for me to train it if I didnt think it was the best way. If i thought there were better ways to do what Im doing now, Id switch, because my LIFE could possibly DEPEND on it later.

As for rules, who really cares? I know some guys dont want to get hit hard, or dont want to fight on the ground or against weapons. However, life doesnt always present these options. To me its all about realism and it can get as real as someone wants to go. If I lose, its because of my training. Also, If i lose I have to question my training and see where I was bested and improve upon that. Thats whats in it for you, not some macho BS. As for labeling TMA, Ive been there. I was a TMA guy for some time before recognizing the flaws in the system and changing my routine greatly. I think if any artist out there is serious about self defense then he MUST be able to test that against aggresive pressure in order to validate what it is he is doing and to improve upon any weak areas.
And please, if you like, post your story. perhaps then I can better relate what Im saying here.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#298506 - 11/02/06 01:06 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5829
Loc: USA

I disagree, I feel that "most" styles are created to serve the needs of specifc people in specific cultural situations.

What they do has value, or its seen as having value so other people learn what they teach and in the main it works well for them---so they pass it down and so on.

The "old timers" were often cross trainers--studied a number of different styles before they had something that worked for THEM.
So they passed down a set of training and skills that allowed them to be successful.

Depending on a given persons OWN mental/physical/emotional strengths and weakness what "I" teach may work great or it may not.

If it works then people don't change it much---if it does not then they make changes based upon THEM.

I'll grant you that people often "feel" that certian arts are somehow lacking--but most of the time its just a personal opinion.

You may "belive" that its "the best" I simple don't belive that.

In my opinion there is no "best" art, only arts that some folks are "better" at.
I tend to seperate the person from their art.
Man wins or loses--its a more about THEM and less about what art they train in.

Like I said, you want to see how "I" handle myself in a serious situation--all you need to do is seriously attack me, of course that may just get you killed.

I guess my question is "how badly do you "really" want to find out?"
And what good is that information going to do you with a couple of slugs in your chest.?

See, from my perspective what your talking about is a fantasy, a game people want to play--as long as it NEVER get too serious--you know where they end up seriously injured or dead.

Your still doing the whole "strawman" thing.

TMA ISN'T a "system" its MANY dozens of SEPERATE, discrite, individual systems all over the planet.

The is no "flaws' in TMA because there are many, very different TMA--they all may have flaws--just all can't be flawed in the same way.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#298507 - 11/02/06 01:20 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5829
Loc: USA


I assume that were talking about actual people walking into schools and challanging people to more or less full contact anything goes kind of things.

If were not, then this makes little sense. Sorry

Guy walks in off the street and wants to join IF the teacher can "really" beat him in a match--cause there no point in studing there if he can't beat him.

Teacher looks at the dude--he's 35-40 the "challager" is maybe 20-25.

I have to paraphrase here.

"Ok, I'm older, shorter, but more muscular I got 3 problems.

1-I have 20 years of training I should win.

But if I do then I'm a jerk for beating up a guy thats smaller, younger and with less experience.

2-Say we tie?

I look like a jerk for not being able to beat a smaller, less expereinced guy.
I lose students, I lose money.
You'll tell everyone you know that I couldn't beat you, I lose MORE students and MORE money.

3-You might beat me, I look like a jerk, and REALLY lose my students respect, I really lose money and you'll STILL tell everyone you know you beat me so I'll lose EVEN MORE money.

I risk everything--you risk nothing.

Thats not fair at all.

So I tell you what, you go out get the pink slip to your car, sign it over to me--IF I win, with all the students here as witnesses.

What do you say?"

Guy looked at him like he was insane--then left without a word.

That is the only time I have every seen anyone "really" walk into a school and "challange" the teacher.

I even gave teacher some crap about it.

Told him "If your confident in your skills--why not prove it?"

His answer?

"If I'm confident in my skills---why not use them to get a free car?
Besides hes the one without confidence in his skills--if was that sure--he has no reason NOT to bet his car now does he?"

Always remembered that.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#298508 - 11/02/06 01:28 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Happy Birthday Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
*pops neck and prepares for battle*

First, Cultural emphasis. Like TKD doing high kicks to dismount horse riding soldiers? I buy it a little. Sure, your culture and area is going to affect how you compose your system. However, like you stated, many of these "Masters" trained elsewhere, so how much cultural emphasis is there when you begin to take on things from other systems and cultures? Why add these to your system unless you are striving to make it better, or the best? If you were truly worried about only certain situations rather than self defense on a whole you wouldnt do it.

Also when teaching, surely your weaknesses will show through but I dont think they are solely responsible for a students success. Each student has his own set of strengths or weaknesses and also his own interpretation of what is laid out before him. He has as much to do with his learning as I do. Perhaps more.

And people are always going to say certain arts are lacking. They must if they hope to improve upon them. And, rather people choose to believe it, many arts are incomplete. This is especially evident in the older arts. When your system lacks a ground game for instance, its not a feeling, its truly incomplete. And yes, Each TMA is individual from every other. But I venture to say that more of them are incomplete than complete(able to effectively cover each range).

Also, making a challenge isnt always about seeing how well "you" can handle things but rather how can "I" handle situations that vary from what i am normally up against. Its variety. The desire to be able to adapt and work well in any situation.

As far as feeling that your art is the best, I think this is something that many practitioners are lacking. To me its unfortunate. If you dont feel that it serves your purposes best why do it and trust that it will work when your life is on the line? Im of the opinion that if you are 100 percent confident in your art then I have you beat. Im believe wholeheartedly in what I do, therefor I will not hesitate, I will not waver, I will not stop. If you dont believe, then you very well might hesitate, wondering if this is going to work. This may cause your movements to faulter, your morale to change and even possibly affect your whole strategy. It could easliy cost someone the fight. If you cant put your faith in your art to save your life or your loved ones when you need it, move on to something that you think will.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#298509 - 11/02/06 02:15 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5829
Loc: USA

Nah, that story is pure-d-crap.

Just like the one about karate being develeoped by Okinawan peasents to defeat sword armed samurai.

Also pure-d-crap.

As I see it the "weakness" is in the person--not the style.

What people precive as "weakness" is just stuff they can't get to work.

No, the student is at least as responsible for their success or faliure as the teacher is.

You have to willing to do the work, you have to be smart enough to apply the lesson and you have to be ready to be taught.

The pro's call it "coachablity."

And without it your sunk.

A teacher has to able to impart the lessons, has to be able to understand his student and be able to guide them thu the training.

Its a group effort, if your not willing or able to do YOUR part then you'll probably fail.
If the teacher/coach is unwilling or unable to do THIER part them you'll probably fail.

Cultural part is where the art comes from.

The older Japanese arts "lacked a gound game" because they were battlefield arts--and "going to the ground" in pitched battle will get you killed.

In THAT context--not a "useful" skill so they didn't practice it much.
Mainly they practiced how to get back up FAST if knocked down.

Plus the assumption is that EVERONE was packing a knife, and if you have an arm free you going to stab them to death, MOST current MMA practices assume YOUR NOT armed.

See the system is not "really" lacking--its the PERCEPTION that's "off."

You could just as easily say that the "normal" MMA appracoh is "incomplete" because it lacks any sort of weapons training.

Take an art outside of its culture and what it was designed for--you get serious mistakes in terms of how its viewed.

I trust my art because when I really needed it--it worked.

End of story.

I got/get pushed HARD when I train, everyone I know trains had, so I have no experience with folks that don't.

Outside of a McDojo that is.

Glad you have faith in your training--hopefully you'll never have to find out if you right about it.

Hopefully---I mean thay seriously.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#298510 - 11/02/06 02:15 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA

*pops neck and prepares for battle*

LMAO. Chen and cxt =
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#298511 - 11/02/06 02:32 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: cxt]
Happy Birthday Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I didnt really think the horse suggestion was really accurate, I just mentioned it to make sure I was getting the general gist of your post. Ando so karate didnt have grappling 500 YEARS AGO, because of there battlefeild conditions, yet that isnt the REALITY now. Therefore leading one such as i to believe it is incomplete due to its inability or unwillingness to adapt to the times. Its not that I dont UNDERSTAND the art, I simply see its weakness for what it is.

If you take your art outside of its cultural function and it fails then your art has failed you my friend. I dont depend on the ideology of a thousand years ago in my training. If there is a cultural influence on my art, its a present day emphasis. And MMA does due weapons. I do anyways. Knife and stick. I shoot too though my gym doesnt teach it.
If your training held up, then congratulations, you're doing something right. Im glad that we can have conversations like these.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#298512 - 11/02/06 02:55 PM Re: Challenging in MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually the classical karate practiced today was the art of bodyguards to the king, not of the battlefield. And it was developed in the 1800s by Matsumura. The act of being a bodyguard did entail wrestling to a certain degree. Especially the act of entangling an opponent and disabling him while the king escaped. Guarding the king was a job in which you had to be prepared to sacrifice your well being for your regent.

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