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#298128 - 10/31/06 06:48 PM Any vegetarians here?
Dervish Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 18
Loc: NY, USA
I've been vegetarian for seven years. Since then I've done surfing, swimming, and a lot of long distance walking without any problems, but this is the first time since going veggie that I'm going to be practicing martial arts (Kendo). Is anyone else here a vegetarian? I've always been confident that I'm eating right, but if anyone here has any experiences that they'd like to share, please feel free.

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#298129 - 10/31/06 07:43 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dervish]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
I've been vegan for 8 years. It's never given me any problems. One thing I'll say though is don't just go and eat more dairy. If you're keeping dairy in your diet just keep what you have, don't replace meat with dairy. And don't replace meat with soy. This is a recent lesson I've learned. Soy isn't actually that good for you, in fact it looks as if it's more a junk food than anything. Tempeh and miso are ok though - fermented soy.
Anymore questions just ask. There are also people like Mac Danzig (King of the Cage lightweight champion) who are vegan, as well as Mike Mahler (strength trainer).

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#298130 - 10/31/06 08:06 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Dervish Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 18
Loc: NY, USA
Thanks for your reply, vegantkd!

I've been lacto vegetarian for 7 years, but I've never attempted to replace meat with dairy. However, I feel that after all these years, I am still relying on soy too much (but I get a lot of lentils and beans). Tempeh and Miso sounds like a great alternative and I keep hearing about it. I'm definetely going to look into it now.


Edited by Dervish (10/31/06 08:10 PM)

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#298131 - 10/31/06 08:09 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dervish]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm a meat eater but that isn't why I popped in on your thread. I thought I'd just pass on that Bill Pearl, a big name in the body building world, later became a vegetarian and still continued his career. You should have no problem continuing how you eat and doing any martial arts. Enjoy yourself.

This is also from his website:

Quote:

Two-thirds of the population of the world live on a Lacto-Ova-Vegetarian diet. The bulk of their nutrients comes from a plant or fruit source while using small amounts of animal protein. A strict vegetarian should get additional Calcium, Phosphorus, Iron, Vitamin B12 from a supplemental source. Eggs are given the highest quality rating for protein compared to other foods. Here is an example:

Food = Percentage of Protein

Eggs = 100 Percent
Fish = 70 Percent
Lean Beef = 69 Percent
Cow's Milk = 60 Percent
Brown Rice = 67 Percent
Soybeans = 47 Percent


_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#298132 - 10/31/06 08:17 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dereck]
Dervish Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 18
Loc: NY, USA
Thanks, Dereck Seeing a few names in the martial art world is very reassuring, indeed.

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#298133 - 10/31/06 08:20 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dervish]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

Thanks for your reply, vegantkd!

I've been lacto vegetarian for 7 years, but I've never attempted to replace meat with dairy. However, I feel that after all these years, I am still relying on soy too much (but I get a lot of lentils and beans). Tempeh and Miso sounds like a great alternative and I keep hearing about it. I'm definetely going to look into it now.



I've recently cut soy almost entirely out of my diet. I think if I was a lacto-ovo it'd be easier to do that. I replaced a lot of dairy products with soy. Like milk and cheese and protein powder. But now I use almond and rice milk and rice-based protein powder. I will eat tempeh and miso sometimes, but not often because of the impact that soy has on your hormones. I sometimes as a treat will get soy lunchmeats or soy ice cream. I really don't like rice dream ice cream as much. But I figure, if you're getting it as a treat, it's junk food anyway.

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#298134 - 11/02/06 09:07 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dereck]
Dervish Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 18
Loc: NY, USA
Thanks for adding that nutrition table Dereck, and thanks for the posts vegantkd. I'm looking into a lot of things right now, and will change my diet accordingly. Needless to say, I doubt that I'll ever see soy in the same light again.

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#298135 - 12/13/06 01:36 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dervish]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
Any suggestions for someone that is just considering moving towards a more vegetarian lifestyle but does not know where to begin?

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#298136 - 12/13/06 03:04 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dervish]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Bill Pearl eats a lot of egg whites, so as to cut down on the choleteral of eggs.

From a Q & A seminar with Mr Pearl

Q "When you're in training for a contest such as your last one in 1971, or, say, for an exhibition, what does your diet consist of?"


BP: "My morning and afternoon meals will almost be all eggs and some fresh fruit and raw vegetables. Most of the fat that is found in an egg is in the yolk, so my wife will scramble 6 or 7 eggs in a Teflon pan and, while doing it, would take out 4 of the 7 yolks. So, to keep the fat content down, we will keep backing off the yolks."

For my evening meal I will have some type of meat substitute and fresh vegetables and maybe some cooked vegetables and some type of fruit like cantaloupe, watermelon, or honeydew."

MacMill, once more looking at Bill Pearl, he said in an article that after his doctor told him his cholesteral and blood pressure were off the chart, he decided to make a big change. At first, he cut out red meat, but continued to eat white meat for a time. After a while he cut out white meat, but continued to eat fish (I know some fish are considered white meat). Not too long after he became a Lacto-ovo-vegetarian, and has been so ever since.

So it was a gradual thing. I myself have cut my red meat way down to two portions a week. My blood pressure has noticeably improved and my body fat has also had a noticeable decrease. I hope to eliminate it from the diet in the not too distant future.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#298137 - 12/13/06 11:10 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Sorry to hijack the thread but, why ddi you vegetarians become vegetarians?
_________________________
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#298138 - 12/14/06 11:48 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Because green is the new red.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#298139 - 12/14/06 11:49 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Dereck]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Dereck, black, not red lol
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#298140 - 12/14/06 01:07 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Sorry to hijack the thread but, why ddi you vegetarians become vegetarians?




Usually the healthier option. Studies have shown that people who eat red meat regularly normally have higher blood pressure, have higher body mass indices, and are more likely to have type 2 diabetes than people who don't. There are many illness linked to eating red meat, including several types of cancer.

And frankly it can take up to three weeks for a portion of red meat to leave your system

And there is nothing nutritionally that you get in red meat you can't get in any other foods.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#298141 - 12/14/06 05:23 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Prizewriter]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Fair enough for red meat (although comon... bacon?) but you'll need the Martial Arts Gods to prise me away from my chicken
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#298142 - 12/14/06 08:52 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: TimBlack]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
Is chicken as bad as red meat? I'm going to continue eating red meat anyway, but just out of curiosity is chicken better for you?
_________________________
"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord

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#298143 - 12/14/06 10:26 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Prizewriter]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:


And there is nothing nutritionally that you get in red meat you can't get in any other foods.


other foods...such as meat? lol. I can not count the amount of articles Ive seen stressing the importance of eating red meat
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#298144 - 12/15/06 01:41 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: crablord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I understand rec meat and maybe even chicken (but I'll continue eating it thank you) but what about wild fish? Okinawan people have diets very high in fish and are some of the healthiest people on earth. Fish is high in protein, omega 3 fatty acids (an essential nutrient), I think B vitamins and various other nutrients.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#298145 - 12/15/06 09:25 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: crablord]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

I can not count the amount of articles Ive seen stressing the importance of eating red meat




Learn some bigger numbers, perhaps?

I've lost track of the articles stressing the importance of not eating red meat. I have the same reaction to both types of articles: I ignore them and eat what I please.

In related news, there's a new study (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6180753.stm) which apparently shows that vegetarians have a higher IQ. I judge it to be bunk, as details of the research are conspicuously absent from the article, but feel free to have a read.
_________________________
ThomsonsPier

War. It's fan-tastic!

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#298146 - 12/15/06 09:33 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I would tend to agree with that article not even looking at data.

The decision to not eat living beings is usually based upon a philosophical notion. Either that they should not be killed for the sake of food, displeasure at the conditions and quality of life of said living being, or otherwise.

Those are all based upon higher mental processes than "mmm, steak!!" so it stands to reason that people who have made the decision to not eat flesh have a higher intelligence.

BTW, my sister became vegetarian based upon health issues, and stayed a vegetarian based upon the second reason listed above. She loves the taste of steak, chicken, and the whole slew, but is mortified by the horrible conditions in which food-animals are kept.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#298147 - 12/15/06 09:57 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

Those are all based upon higher mental processes than "mmm, steak!!" so it stands to reason that people who have made the decision to not eat flesh have a higher intelligence.




That logic presupposes that all people of 'higher' intelligence have the same moral values or subscribe to the same philosophy. I find it easier to achieve a balanced diet containing the required nutrients by including meat than by omitting it.

The main consideration on my part is that I like meat, base and self-indulgent though that reasoning may be. I do eat free range and organically reared animals, but that's more to with the taste and nutrition than any moral concern.

Mmm, steak.
_________________________
ThomsonsPier

War. It's fan-tastic!

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#298148 - 12/15/06 10:01 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Being vegetarian is a conscious choice. Being omnivorous is a natural instinct. From that you can decide which is more in tune with your nutritional requirements.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#298149 - 12/15/06 10:14 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

That logic presupposes that all people of 'higher' intelligence have the same moral values or subscribe to the same philosophy.




No, it doesn't. My logic says that people who are vegetarians are more likely to be of higher intelligence, not that all people of higher intelligence are going to be vegetarians.

Kind of like:

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
squares = vegetarians
rectangles = people with higher IQ

I'm not arguing the validity of vegetarian or omnivorous dietary habits, just the mental processes that go on behind them.
As Cord said, being omnivorous is natural instinct. Going beyond natural instinct has to involve choice. Choice (usually) involves knowledge of the possible options. Knowledge is produced through education. Ergo intelligence.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#298150 - 12/15/06 10:21 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:


That logic presupposes that all people of 'higher' intelligence have the same moral values or subscribe to the same philosophy. I find it easier to achieve a balanced diet containing the required nutrients by including meat than by omitting it.





Sir, are you putting yourself in the group of people with a 'higher' level of intelligence?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#298151 - 12/15/06 10:26 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
Who remembers this from Beverley Hills Cop when Taggart and Rosewood were staking out Axel?!

Detective Rosewood: Wow. You know, it says here that by the time the average American is fifty, he has five pounds of undigested red meat in his bowels.
Sergeant Taggart: Why are you telling me this? What makes you think I have any interest in that at all?
Detective Rosewood: Well, you eat a lot of red meat.

_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#298152 - 12/15/06 10:33 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

.
As Cord said, being omnivorous is natural instinct. Going beyond natural instinct has to involve choice. Choice (usually) involves knowledge of the possible options. Knowledge is produced through education. Ergo intelligence.




Mans natural instinct is to avoid extreme heat. Your instict is to not put your hand in a fire.

Some people make the choice to be branded, or to 'fire walk' on glowing coals.

That is the concious overriding instinct, but is it a sensible or more valid decision because of that?

Instict is the most powerful tool we have. Instict keeps us alive and healthy. All our education and 'higher' intelligence is geared towards serving our instincts.
Our big frontal lobe is not as all powerful as we like to think.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#298153 - 12/15/06 10:48 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I'm confused, Cord, are you saying that you don't agree with the study that vegetarians have a higher IQ? Or are you just putting things out there as food for thought?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#298154 - 12/15/06 11:11 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
i am saying that IQ does not necessarily equate with good judgement, anymore than a high level of academic expertise indicates comparable levels of common sense.

Thirsty? drink something. Hungry? eat something. Cold? find shelter. Want to breed? find a mate.

Add intellect and 'developed' society and you get Isotonic gatorade, organic tofu retaurants, climate controlled condo's and speed dating.

Its still boils down to the same things.

We are omnivores. it is almost obscene that we can sit here and 'pick and choose' what to eat based on moral or 'health' criteria, when so much of the world is hasn't got a steady supply of any food whatsoever.

Be a veggie if your head or heart tells you to do so, but you are no better, wiser or more virtuous than anyone else based on this choice.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#298155 - 12/15/06 12:55 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

Sorry to hijack the thread but, why ddi you vegetarians become vegetarians?



Purely ethical reasons. I love the taste of meat but to me it's not worth the lives of animals. I do think that eating meat/being vegetarian both have their pros and cons health-wise so I don't necessarily think that one is all that much better than the other.

Quote:

We are omnivores. it is almost obscene that we can sit here and 'pick and choose' what to eat based on moral or 'health' criteria, when so much of the world is hasn't got a steady supply of any food whatsoever.



Well if you look at it from an ethical vegetarian's point of view, it's not very obscene at all. I don't see animals as food. I "choose" not to eat cows just the same as I "choose" not to eat people. I don't see people as food either. However I could get the same nutrients. However, if you want to talk about world hunger let's look at this: because we burn off calories just living our lives - breathing, pumping blood, moving around, etc. - and animals work the same way, much of what farmers feed the animals when fattening them for slaughter gets burned off. It can take up to 16 lbs of grain just to get 1 lb of edible flesh. I don't know about you, but I can get several meals out of just one lb of grains.

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#298156 - 12/15/06 08:54 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So one moral decision out of many makes you smarter? what if that's the only moral decision they ever make?
And I respect that as a moral decision.


Edited by Stormdragon (12/15/06 09:46 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#298157 - 12/15/06 10:14 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Whoa, I'm not the one who said that pal. But interestingly enough this just came out today: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2076161.ece

Published on Friday, December 15, 2006 by the Inter Press Service

Vegetarianism: the Choice of the 'More Intelligent' Child
by Jeremy Laurance



It's official - vegetarians really are smarter. But it is not because of what they eat. Bright children are more likely to reject meat and opt to become vegetarians when they grow up, a study has shown. Clever veggies are born not made.

The finding helps explain how a team of vegetarians won the BBC Test the Nation competition in September, when they beat off competition from six other teams including butchers, public school pupils and footballers' wives to achieve the highest overall IQ score.

The top scoring individual in the contest, Marie Bidmead, 68, a mother of five from Churcham, Gloucester, was also a vegetarian. "I think it shows we veggies are good thinkers. We think about what we eat for a start," she said.

Researchers from the University of Southampton who conducted the study agree. They suggest that vegetarians are more thoughtful about what they eat. But they say it is unclear whether bright children choose to become vegetarians for the health benefits or for other reasons, such as a concern for animals, or as a lifestyle choice.

The scientists began investigating the link between IQ and vegetarianism because people with higher intelligence have a lower risk of heart disease, which has long puzzled doctors.

A vegetarian diet is associated with a lower cholesterol level, lower blood pressure and less obesity - all risk factors for heart disease. The researchers wondered if this could explain the health advantage of having a high IQ. They cite Benjamin Franklin, the 18th-century statesman and scientist, who said that a vegetarian diet results in a "greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension". He may not have realised that this was because of whom was eating rather than what was eaten.

However, early last century doctors were less enamoured of the practice. Robert Hutchison told the British Medical Association in 1930: "Vegetarianism is harmless enough though it is apt to fill a man with wind and self-righteousness."

The study, published in the British Medical Journal, was based on more than 8,000 people born in 1970 whose IQ was measured at age 10. Now aged 36, the researchers found 366, just under one in 20, said they were vegetarians (a third of these ate chicken or fish but none touched red meat).

As well as being brighter, the vegetarians were better educated and of higher social class but the link with intelligence remained statistically significant even after adjusting for these factors. Despite their intelligence they were not wealthier and more likely to be working for charities or in education. "It may be that ethical considerations determined not just their diet but also their choice of employment," the report said.

It concludes: "Our finding that children with greater intelligence are more likely to report being vegetarian as adults, coupled with the evidence on the potential health benefits of a vegetarian diet, may help to explain why higher IQ in childhood or adolescence is linked with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease in adult life."

The benefits of forsaking meat

* A vegetarian diet tends to be lower in fat, higher in fibre and vitamins

* Vegetarian diets are associated with lower cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less obesity

* Vegetarians have lower rates of heart disease, less diabetes and may have less risk of cancer and dementia

* The Vegetarian Society, claimed to be the oldest in the world, was founded in Ramsgate, Kent, in 1847. Mahatma Ghandi, George Bernard Shaw and Linda McCartney were members

* 'Vegetarian' is derived from the Latin vegetus, meaning 'lively' and was intended to be suggestive of the English 'vegetable'

2006 Independent News and Media Limited

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#298158 - 12/15/06 10:43 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Kind of makes sense although I want examples of famous smart people who were vegetarians. I know very inteligent people who are meat eaters. Got to have qualitative evidence.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#298159 - 12/15/06 11:12 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

Kind of makes sense although I want examples of famous smart people who were vegetarians. I know very inteligent people who are meat eaters. Got to have qualitative evidence.



Well, how about Albert Einstein, Albert Schweitzer, Alice Walker, Ben Franklin, Dr. Spock (not the Star Trek guy although Leonard Nemoy is vegetarian too), Charles Darwin, Dr. Kellogg, Pythagoras, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, Henry Heimlich, Thoreau, Rousseau, Tolstoy, Da Vinci, Ghandi, Peter Singer?

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#298160 - 12/15/06 11:53 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yeah that'll work. lol
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#298161 - 12/16/06 02:41 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Well, how about Albert Einstein, Albert Schweitzer, Alice Walker, Ben Franklin, Dr. Spock (not the Star Trek guy although Leonard Nemoy is vegetarian too), Charles Darwin, Dr. Kellogg, Pythagoras, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, Henry Heimlich, Thoreau, Rousseau, Tolstoy, Da Vinci, Ghandi, Peter Singer?




You forgot Adolf Hitler
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#298162 - 12/16/06 03:53 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Yeah but Hitler wasn't so much intelligent as he was charismatic. And aside from that he was like one of those lameasses who says "I'm vegetarian but I eat chicken." He ate meat when he felt like it.

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#298163 - 12/16/06 08:45 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Yeah but Hitler wasn't so much intelligent as he was charismatic.




So we agree that vegetarianism does not equate with intelligence?, nor benevolence.

there are so many levels of vegetarianism. From uber-vegan to 'fish and chicken grow on trees'.

As with every dietary choice, eating properly within the perameters you set yourself is what maximises your chances of health benefit. A clueless vegan is going to come into severe nutrient deficiency very quickly, making them in far worse health than an omnivor who likes a steak at the weekend.

figures regarding veggies having better physiological health are also misleading, as they do not indicate related factors that may contribute to the results.

people who make such a big lifestyle change as to become veggies often do so out of a perception that it is the 'healthy' option. Such people are also less likely to smoke, drink heavily, and more likely to take some form of exercise. As stereotypical as it may sound, having been in the fitness industry for some time, it is an observation that the 'vegeterian mindset' gravitates towards things such as pilates and yoga- known for their 'stress busting' qualities.

The chances are that a meat eater, who does not smoke, drink heavily, takes regular exercise incorporating stress management techniques, will have just as robust a physiology as a vegetarian.

Conversely, a hard drinking chain smoking veggie who's idea of exercise is the new Wii controller is very likely to be on his way to an early grave.

Statistics only prove what the collators want them to prove.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#298164 - 12/16/06 10:20 AM Re I AM VEGETARIAN BECAUSE I HAVE DIABETES [Re: Cord]
quelab22 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 1
Quelab, welcome to the forums. I appreciate that you appear to be speaking from personal experience regarding your diabetes, but I will not allow any link to products that encourage insulin dependant diabetics to ditch this life saving medication in favour of sauna's and homeopathic remedies. simply no medical backing or endorsment of such an act, and insulin keeps many 100o's of people alive.
I also have no idea if this is advertising or not as i have no idea of you and your intentions on this site- advertising is not allowed, so another reason your post has been deleted.

It also had NOTHING to do with the discussion regarding vegetarian diets.

No advertising. No advocating potentialy fatal health management systems. No derailing of threads.

Simple rules. See how you do from there.

Cord.


Edited by Cord (12/16/06 12:19 PM)

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#298165 - 12/16/06 12:57 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:



So we agree that vegetarianism does not equate with intelligence?, nor benevolence.





Damn people, I still never said one way or the other. Stop assuming I'm taking a side. Personally I don't care if vegetarians are smarter. I know that I'm vegan and that I'm intelligent and that I'm a good athlete and that's all that matters to me. I could care less if Einstein was vegetarian or Hitler was vegetarian.
And as far as nutrition goes, I already said each diet has it's own pros and cons. I did it for ethical reasons without regard to nutrition at the time (of course I subsequently learned about the nutritional aspects of it). And all the people I know who say "I tried being vegetarian but I got really sick." all give me the same answer when I ask them what kind of food they ate: "I ate a LOT of pizza and I tried them veggieburgers." Yeah well guess what, if you're a meat eater and you eat nothing but pizza and cheeseburgers you're still going to get sick.

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#298166 - 12/16/06 02:52 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
I fail to see how there can be any correlation between vegetarianism and intelligence. There are far too many people whom I would consider intelligent who are not vegetarians and vice versa. Just as there are certainly vegetarians out there who are not as intelligent and vice versa. Not to mention the definition of what it is to be intelligent is very much so dependant on one's social surrounding.

I for one am a vegetarian for religious reasons.

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#298167 - 12/16/06 03:17 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Christie]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
What I find funny about the article that I posted is that their big finding was that less than 1/20 (366) of their test group were vegetarian BUT 1/3 of those weren't actually even vegetarians. So actually about 122 were vegetarian. And they don't mention anything about how that correlated with the actual IQ's. Unless I missed something.


Edited by vegantkd (12/16/06 03:36 PM)

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#298168 - 12/16/06 03:40 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
<<Statistics only prove what the collators want them to prove. >>

Amen!
_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#298169 - 12/16/06 07:56 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

Being vegetarian is a conscious choice. Being omnivorous is a natural instinct. From that you can decide which is more in tune with your nutritional requirements.



You're saying this from the point of view of someone who was raised as an omnivore I'm assuming. If one was raised as a vegetarian, they're not going to crave meat out of nowhere. But once you get a taste for it, just like anything else, you might get a craving for it. I used to smoke. Sometimes I get a craving for a cigarette, but that doesn't mean it's my natural instinct.

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#298170 - 12/16/06 08:04 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
No, as animals, our instinct is to see other animals as a source of nutrients. We have in our subconscious both the instinct to hunt and to scavenge.
It has over the past few years come to light that chimpanzees also hunt in packs, and eat animal flesh as a regular part of their diet.
Our bodies are set up to process and use flesh as a source of energy and nutrients, and our minds are imbued with a natural instinct to make use of that physiological ability.

That is what I mean by instinct. Being vegetarian is not our natural state.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#298171 - 12/16/06 08:39 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I do think that argument is slightly flawed. Sure there are parts of our physical makeup that would work with an omnivorous diet. But there are also parts that would prove the opposite. Personally, and I'm no doctor, but it doesn't seem healthy that meat sits in your intestines for so long and is allowed to putrify. Also, other omnivorous animals have like 20 times the amount of digestive acid as humans do, which breaks down animal proteins.
So whereas we CAN process animals and absorb the nutrients from them, it may not be the most ideal way for us to get nutrients. Perhaps a back up, in case we were to have to survive in a place where plantlife was scarce.

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#298172 - 12/16/06 08:52 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Our instinct is that of hunter-gatherer. To eat both animal and plant material. It is far easier for our bodies to achieve the necessary nutrient intake by this method than by being purely vegetarian. The vast majority of proteins available to us from single, non animal, sources are incomplete, lacking the full range of essential amino acids found in meat.
This means that beans and pulses must be varied and combined meal to meal. This is only feasable in a developed agricultural environment. Our base physiology finds meat a more efficient and immediately balanced protein source.

Remember, i am not saying it is not possible to eat a vegetarian diet, it is merely a simple fact that we, as primates, are omnivorous, and have been through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#298173 - 12/16/06 09:01 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Eating meat may be a more efficient way of obtaining nutrients in the sense that you don't have to combine foods (you don't necessarily have to combine them at the same time. You can eat rice for lunch and beans for dinner and still obtain a complete protein, as an example.) However, if it was truly the best way, our bodies would produce the necessary amount of stomach acid to completely break down the animal protein and fully digest it. Rather than allowing undigested remains fester in our intestines which allow for illness. Also, meat eaters have a much higher incidence of heart disease and colon cancer than vegetarians. Could be coincidence but I don't know...

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#298174 - 12/16/06 09:28 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Eating meat may be a more efficient way of obtaining nutrients in the sense that you don't have to combine foods (you don't necessarily have to combine them at the same time. You can eat rice for lunch and beans for dinner and still obtain a complete protein, as an example.)




And how does that equate with our pre-agricultural physiological needs? would our basic foraging range and environment encompass a varied enough supply of roots and pulses to sustain us, or would we just kill a rabbit and save our energy?

Quote:

However, if it was truly the best way, our bodies would produce the necessary amount of stomach acid to completely break down the animal protein and fully digest it.




We simply do not process any food source- animal or vegetable with 100% efficiency. No creature on earth does. Yet still we must eat to survive.
Koala's must ingest bacteria from their mothers feaceas in order to digest eucaplyptus leaves, the Panda has to eat bamboo contininualy to get the nutrients it needs to survive (and will most happily eat meat when given the chance).
My point is that the ingesting of matter from which to derive energy is an inefficient process regardless of the matter in question.

Quote:

Also, meat eaters have a much higher incidence of heart disease and colon cancer than vegetarians. Could be coincidence but I don't know...




I refer you to my answer above:'people who make such a big lifestyle change as to become veggies often do so out of a perception that it is the 'healthy' option. Such people are also less likely to smoke, drink heavily, and more likely to take some form of exercise. As stereotypical as it may sound, having been in the fitness industry for some time, it is an observation that the 'vegeterian mindset' gravitates towards things such as pilates and yoga- known for their 'stress busting' qualities.

The chances are that a meat eater, who does not smoke, drink heavily, takes regular exercise incorporating stress management techniques, will have just as robust a physiology as a vegetarian.

Conversely, a hard drinking chain smoking veggie who's idea of exercise is the new Wii controller is very likely to be on his way to an early grave.

Statistics only prove what the collators want them to prove. '
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#298175 - 12/17/06 01:01 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"Statistics only prove what the collators want them to prove."

I'd say thats 80% correct.

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#298176 - 12/17/06 07:56 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

"Statistics only prove what the collators want them to prove."

I'd say thats 80% correct.




Too true. A person could say that 1 out of every 3 people in the world is from India or China, but if you walk down the street today and pass 15 people, will 5 of them be from India or China????
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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