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#298148 - 12/15/06 10:01 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Being vegetarian is a conscious choice. Being omnivorous is a natural instinct. From that you can decide which is more in tune with your nutritional requirements.
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#298149 - 12/15/06 10:14 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

That logic presupposes that all people of 'higher' intelligence have the same moral values or subscribe to the same philosophy.




No, it doesn't. My logic says that people who are vegetarians are more likely to be of higher intelligence, not that all people of higher intelligence are going to be vegetarians.

Kind of like:

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
squares = vegetarians
rectangles = people with higher IQ

I'm not arguing the validity of vegetarian or omnivorous dietary habits, just the mental processes that go on behind them.
As Cord said, being omnivorous is natural instinct. Going beyond natural instinct has to involve choice. Choice (usually) involves knowledge of the possible options. Knowledge is produced through education. Ergo intelligence.
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#298150 - 12/15/06 10:21 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:


That logic presupposes that all people of 'higher' intelligence have the same moral values or subscribe to the same philosophy. I find it easier to achieve a balanced diet containing the required nutrients by including meat than by omitting it.





Sir, are you putting yourself in the group of people with a 'higher' level of intelligence?
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#298151 - 12/15/06 10:26 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
Who remembers this from Beverley Hills Cop when Taggart and Rosewood were staking out Axel?!

Detective Rosewood: Wow. You know, it says here that by the time the average American is fifty, he has five pounds of undigested red meat in his bowels.
Sergeant Taggart: Why are you telling me this? What makes you think I have any interest in that at all?
Detective Rosewood: Well, you eat a lot of red meat.

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#298152 - 12/15/06 10:33 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

.
As Cord said, being omnivorous is natural instinct. Going beyond natural instinct has to involve choice. Choice (usually) involves knowledge of the possible options. Knowledge is produced through education. Ergo intelligence.




Mans natural instinct is to avoid extreme heat. Your instict is to not put your hand in a fire.

Some people make the choice to be branded, or to 'fire walk' on glowing coals.

That is the concious overriding instinct, but is it a sensible or more valid decision because of that?

Instict is the most powerful tool we have. Instict keeps us alive and healthy. All our education and 'higher' intelligence is geared towards serving our instincts.
Our big frontal lobe is not as all powerful as we like to think.
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#298153 - 12/15/06 10:48 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Cord]
JoelM Offline
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I'm confused, Cord, are you saying that you don't agree with the study that vegetarians have a higher IQ? Or are you just putting things out there as food for thought?
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#298154 - 12/15/06 11:11 AM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: JoelM]
Cord Offline
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
i am saying that IQ does not necessarily equate with good judgement, anymore than a high level of academic expertise indicates comparable levels of common sense.

Thirsty? drink something. Hungry? eat something. Cold? find shelter. Want to breed? find a mate.

Add intellect and 'developed' society and you get Isotonic gatorade, organic tofu retaurants, climate controlled condo's and speed dating.

Its still boils down to the same things.

We are omnivores. it is almost obscene that we can sit here and 'pick and choose' what to eat based on moral or 'health' criteria, when so much of the world is hasn't got a steady supply of any food whatsoever.

Be a veggie if your head or heart tells you to do so, but you are no better, wiser or more virtuous than anyone else based on this choice.
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#298155 - 12/15/06 12:55 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

Sorry to hijack the thread but, why ddi you vegetarians become vegetarians?



Purely ethical reasons. I love the taste of meat but to me it's not worth the lives of animals. I do think that eating meat/being vegetarian both have their pros and cons health-wise so I don't necessarily think that one is all that much better than the other.

Quote:

We are omnivores. it is almost obscene that we can sit here and 'pick and choose' what to eat based on moral or 'health' criteria, when so much of the world is hasn't got a steady supply of any food whatsoever.



Well if you look at it from an ethical vegetarian's point of view, it's not very obscene at all. I don't see animals as food. I "choose" not to eat cows just the same as I "choose" not to eat people. I don't see people as food either. However I could get the same nutrients. However, if you want to talk about world hunger let's look at this: because we burn off calories just living our lives - breathing, pumping blood, moving around, etc. - and animals work the same way, much of what farmers feed the animals when fattening them for slaughter gets burned off. It can take up to 16 lbs of grain just to get 1 lb of edible flesh. I don't know about you, but I can get several meals out of just one lb of grains.

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#298156 - 12/15/06 08:54 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: vegantkd]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So one moral decision out of many makes you smarter? what if that's the only moral decision they ever make?
And I respect that as a moral decision.


Edited by Stormdragon (12/15/06 09:46 PM)
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#298157 - 12/15/06 10:14 PM Re: Any vegetarians here? [Re: Stormdragon]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Whoa, I'm not the one who said that pal. But interestingly enough this just came out today: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2076161.ece

Published on Friday, December 15, 2006 by the Inter Press Service

Vegetarianism: the Choice of the 'More Intelligent' Child
by Jeremy Laurance



It's official - vegetarians really are smarter. But it is not because of what they eat. Bright children are more likely to reject meat and opt to become vegetarians when they grow up, a study has shown. Clever veggies are born not made.

The finding helps explain how a team of vegetarians won the BBC Test the Nation competition in September, when they beat off competition from six other teams including butchers, public school pupils and footballers' wives to achieve the highest overall IQ score.

The top scoring individual in the contest, Marie Bidmead, 68, a mother of five from Churcham, Gloucester, was also a vegetarian. "I think it shows we veggies are good thinkers. We think about what we eat for a start," she said.

Researchers from the University of Southampton who conducted the study agree. They suggest that vegetarians are more thoughtful about what they eat. But they say it is unclear whether bright children choose to become vegetarians for the health benefits or for other reasons, such as a concern for animals, or as a lifestyle choice.

The scientists began investigating the link between IQ and vegetarianism because people with higher intelligence have a lower risk of heart disease, which has long puzzled doctors.

A vegetarian diet is associated with a lower cholesterol level, lower blood pressure and less obesity - all risk factors for heart disease. The researchers wondered if this could explain the health advantage of having a high IQ. They cite Benjamin Franklin, the 18th-century statesman and scientist, who said that a vegetarian diet results in a "greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension". He may not have realised that this was because of whom was eating rather than what was eaten.

However, early last century doctors were less enamoured of the practice. Robert Hutchison told the British Medical Association in 1930: "Vegetarianism is harmless enough though it is apt to fill a man with wind and self-righteousness."

The study, published in the British Medical Journal, was based on more than 8,000 people born in 1970 whose IQ was measured at age 10. Now aged 36, the researchers found 366, just under one in 20, said they were vegetarians (a third of these ate chicken or fish but none touched red meat).

As well as being brighter, the vegetarians were better educated and of higher social class but the link with intelligence remained statistically significant even after adjusting for these factors. Despite their intelligence they were not wealthier and more likely to be working for charities or in education. "It may be that ethical considerations determined not just their diet but also their choice of employment," the report said.

It concludes: "Our finding that children with greater intelligence are more likely to report being vegetarian as adults, coupled with the evidence on the potential health benefits of a vegetarian diet, may help to explain why higher IQ in childhood or adolescence is linked with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease in adult life."

The benefits of forsaking meat

* A vegetarian diet tends to be lower in fat, higher in fibre and vitamins

* Vegetarian diets are associated with lower cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less obesity

* Vegetarians have lower rates of heart disease, less diabetes and may have less risk of cancer and dementia

* The Vegetarian Society, claimed to be the oldest in the world, was founded in Ramsgate, Kent, in 1847. Mahatma Ghandi, George Bernard Shaw and Linda McCartney were members

* 'Vegetarian' is derived from the Latin vegetus, meaning 'lively' and was intended to be suggestive of the English 'vegetable'

2006 Independent News and Media Limited

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