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#298110 - 11/14/06 07:23 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


I didn't realize, until this thread, that there were so many practitioners of kyusho, including my co-mod, who did not practice KO and who are against it. Now I know so I'm that much smarter.




Firstly Roseanne I've never once stated anywhere or anytime that I practice Kyusho. The only formal training I've ever had in Kyusho has been on seminars. I study PP's as anatomical sign posts as to how to access the body. I don't honestly believe that TCM has any place in the realms of real combat accept as an intellectual sideline to gain a deeper understanding of the human body. I believe the study of biomechanics, the energetics of movement, the physiological and pyschological performance of the human body under stress and the way in which all of these topics interact with each other is where our attention should be. It is these topics that I believe should be the subject of advanced martial science. I'm affraid I think Kyusho (atleast as it's practiced today) is a modern invention. I don't think the kata's contain secret advanced TCM applications either. I think the Chin Na/tuite of old represents the highest possible level of practical PP applications as is possible under limitations of the human body once it slips into combat mode.

Quote:

One thing that is annoying is for people to say that there is or even is not, damage, with nothing but their "ought to be's" or other nonresearched based reasoning, to guide them.




This is simply not true. The foundations of TCM classics states that if there is an imbalance the body will be in a state of dis-ease. TCM is the foundation the knowledge that you use to apply these KO's. The language used to describe what you are doing is self evident also "overloading the persons neurological pathways". As Scott said earlier, overloading a circuit breaker weakens it. Every time a neuron is fired it'll experience wear and tear. To take it to a state of overload, common sense would dictate, it needs to be placed under stress. Increased stress means increased wear. I don't need a neurological study to figure that one out.

Also looking at it from a TCM point of view what about looking at the way the body addresses these energetic imbalances you are creating? How does the EV systems re-adress the balance? At an energetic level what effect are you having on the natural function of internal organs? Do you understand the underlying theory of impairing (even temporarily) the protective elements of Lung and Large Intestine? How do know what effects over stimulating the pericardium will have on a persons emotions?

I also still don't fully understand the point of applying a KO to some who is not in a natural state of combat readiness. Again looking at it from a TCM point of view (again using this theory as the underlying source for Kyusho information) the energetic system is completely altered as the body moves into a state of alarm. The parts of the defenders brain that take over are not capable of making the use of the techniques that are used in these demo's so what use are they? The only PP group I've seen that has publicly released information on dealing with adrenal response is the DSI and even their PP bunkai is totally unappliable under B.A.R. I've not seen anything from either KI or DKI that comes close to applying kyusho under an extreme adrenal response. Most of these so called advnaced martial science groups seem nothing more than martial theorists to me. Nothing wrong that, just leaves the rest of us to sift through the material and take out what's usuable.

Russell Stutely actually as an open, as of yet unanswered, challange to have any of these Kyusho masters apply a TCM KO when he is trying to really knock them out using a good old fashioned KO.

Dunno bit of I rant I know... but I find it annoying when those challanged on their opinion and practices result to the use of "non-arguments".
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#298111 - 11/14/06 12:05 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
I will only add a little to what should be 'post of the year' from Gavin.

Quote:

I study PP's as anatomical sign posts as to how to access the body. I don't honestly believe that TCM has any place in the realms of real combat accept as an intellectual sideline to gain a deeper understanding of the human body.




I no longer study kyusho either. I did with the top people from DKI and DSI and came to the same conculsion as Gavin years ago. It is a fine intellectual pursuit and can drive you crazy.

Here is a snippit from an e-mail I sent Gavin sometime back...

Quote:

You are starting a very long and interesting journey, you will study theory until your eyes bleed. Memorize jing-point, mu-points, shu-points, meridians, vessels, cycles all to end back up at the place where you started.




The Point is that it is fine to study this theory and all of its interactions but what you should be gathering from it are principles.


Quote:

I believe the study of biomechanics, the energetics of movement, the physiological and pyschological performance of the human body under stress and the way in which all of these topics interact with each other is where our attention should be.




Without these things it is simply artsy-fartsy karate.

We all felt like we had found the holy-grail of martial arts when we were shown the effectiveness of pressure points.

When what we actually found was another piece of the puzzle to help us understand the above.



Quote:

I'm affraid I think Kyusho (at least as it's practiced today) is a modern invention. I don't think the kata's contain secret advanced TCM applications either. I think the Chin Na/tuite of old represents the highest possible level of practical PP applications as is possible under limitations of the human body once it slips into combat mode.




Yes, and actual tuite is based on gross motor movement. Please reference taikyoku-sho. It is the simplest kata that is taught, but the contains the most effective tuite in the bunch.

I will give you that in a controlled situation hitting, rubbing, pressing points A,B,C following any one of the three TCM cycles can produce anything from a light daze to a momentary loss of conciousness.

That being said, once the adrenal-response has been activated these staged (whether static or moving) KOs WILL NOT WORK.

There are a few techniques that will work once the body's alarm reaction has been activated but they are based on the flinch response and are very gross motor movements.



Quote:

This is simply not true. The foundations of TCM classics states that if there is an imbalance the body will be in a state of dis-ease. TCM is the foundation the knowledge that you use to apply these KO's. The language used to describe what you are doing is self evident also "overloading the persons neurological pathways". As Scott said earlier, overloading a circuit breaker weakens it. Every time a neuron is fired it'll experience wear and tear. To take it to a state of overload, common sense would dictate, it needs to be placed under stress. Increased stress means increased wear. I don't need a neurological study to figure that one out.

Also looking at it from a TCM point of view what about looking at the way the body addresses these energetic imbalances you are creating? How does the EV systems re-adress the balance? At an energetic level what effect are you having on the natural function of internal organs? Do you understand the underlying theory of impairing (even temporarily) the protective elements of Lung and Large Intestine? How do know what effects over stimulating the pericardium will have on a persons emotions?




Exactly, please read Hara Diagnosis: Relfections on the Sea and Extraordinary Vessels by Kiiko Matsumoto for a better understanding about what Gavin is talking about.


Quote:

Russell Stutely actually as an open, as of yet unanswered, challange to have any of these Kyusho masters apply a TCM KO when he is trying to really knock them out using a good old fashioned KO.




One that I expect will remain unanswered. It is one thing to be able to apply these techniques to the drunk at the bar, the irate customer in a resturant or some loud-mouth redneck at the church picnic quite another to even execute them against a fully resistive opponent hell bent on smashing in your nut.
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#298112 - 11/14/06 12:49 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm not an arguement person. I don't know how I got involved in defending KO practice. I am truly sorry. I now know that this is not the right forum for that.

I spend very little time with KOs. All my Training yesterday was on kata and weapons defense. It was a typical day. No KOs. I taught two special needs classes and we never mention KO. My training is pretty well rounded.

I'm not attacking anyone else's training. I am sorry if someone thought I was attacking them. I don't even care that much how other people train. I just mind my own training. On the forum I expect to exchange ideas and experiences. That has been done pages ago on this thread.

I respect Gav and Scott for what they know and contribute. I still respect them. I expect the same. In my own posts, I try to respect every person who posts. I don't know what I did to deserve less. I don't log on to FA to be abused, backed into a corner or made to be defensive about my training by a co-mod and former mod, 2 against one, each of whom have more experience than I have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have expressed mine and the two of you have expressed yours.

I have read your opinions and find much for agreement and some disagreement and I'm OK with leaving it at that.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#298113 - 11/14/06 01:28 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Whoa hold on there a minute Tex.

Quote:


I'm not attacking anyone else's training. I am sorry if someone thought I was attacking them. I don't even care that much how other people train. I just mind my own training. On the forum I expect to exchange ideas and experiences. That has been done pages ago on this thread.

I respect Gav and Scott for what they know and contribute. I still respect them. I expect the same. In my own posts, I try to respect every person who posts. I don't know what I did to deserve less. I don't log on to FA to be abused, backed into a corner or made to be defensive about my training by a co-mod and former mod, 2 against one, each of whom have more experience than I have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have expressed mine and the two of you have expressed yours.




I for one was not attacking you or your training, I am very sorry for it coming across like that.

KO's are what people on the outside know organizations like DKI,KI and DSI for. It most likely comes from back in the day when in DKI you had to come up with three new KO's that noone had seen before and perform them in front of George to get your next dan grade.

This led to a lot of time at seminars being dedicated to KO's and before you know it the whole thing became a tradition at the end of a seminar. I've performed my share of KO's (100's) because thats what people wanted to see. I leanred more and thought better of it and don't do them anymore (unless it is on accident).


Again I apologize to you Rosanne for making you feel uncomfortable.

You are headed down a good path with good people...keep going. I would urge you to take a look at the information on Body Alarm Reaction. I think you will find it helpful in picking which techniques to go with.

Cheers,
Scott
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#298114 - 12/24/06 12:59 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
Wushaw Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 3
Loc: Baytown, TX
I know this is an old thread, but I was just kinda jumping around, and read your post about KO's not working when the body starts to charge up on adrenaline. I had an argument with a buddy of mine, more of an aquaintence, anyway we both trained in Juko Ryu Jujutsu for a few years, and 3 of our guys went to a Dillman seminar, and came back all geeked up that they couldn't get knocked out by pressure points, they all admited that they felt something, but never lost there balance, or staggered once. they kept saying it was mainly because of the fact we take so many Ki shots to the body that our bodies and minds were conditioned to deflect the PP strikes, I argued that it was our bodies getting an adrenaline dump, that probably insulated our wiring against an attack in this manner... thanks for kind of resolving this in my eyes at least...
_________________________
"Truth through unwavering intent" -Q.U.E.S.T.-

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#298115 - 01/28/07 02:56 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
nobull Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 11
Are you serious?
I understand human has that...
But if you are fighting with someone, How do you hit the point?
I'm not going to slowdown and before people hit my point, I will beat that person, you can use for people not moving..
I can agree with law enforcement tactics, but people fight face to face... I don't think so.. if that's truth, everyone
will training that skill..
Can you tell me how do they use that skill during fight?
I say again, I will move around and use step work..

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#298116 - 01/28/07 07:36 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: nobull]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
you practice through drills until you're sick. First you learn hitting points. When I don't have a person to practice with, I move around the Bob manikin and just attack head and torso points (because that is all he has). I adjust him to different heights and keep drilling. I'll use all my sinewali drills, imagine every kind of attack. I do not have to stop to think when someone swings at me, about what to hit. I go there automatically.

On the tuite, it is easier. I just relearn or update the way I do tuite to include the points that loosen the joints or cause more pain.

Occaisionally I need my PP fighting at work. I am not an LEO but I am a psychiatric nurse and there is always the possibility of being attacked by a patient, or needing to stop a fight, or more commonly, needing to take a patient under control who is cutting herself or punching a wall or overturning furniture in a rage. PP do help.

Your proposition question for application utility isn't really different from your own art done without attendance to PP. Don't you do drills? Did you practice punches and combinations thousands of times? Would you be able to throw a punch correctly if you had to (1) STOP (2) Think about relaxation (3) drive off the back leg (4) tighten at the end? I don't think so. It isn't really any different for PP.

You are welcome, of course, to not use them. You can swing away at places you know hurt and that will be effective anyway. Some of the places you aim for knowing they hurt, are pressure points. I could go for a pressure point almost every time now. I may not actually hit one because of movement, but I will get some. I hope I can land the one that will help me get away. A real fight is not fun and doesn't take place in a dojo world.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#298117 - 01/29/07 07:32 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Underdog,
just because people don't belive in gravity, it doesn't mean they won't fall down. The pressure point work or don't work argument has been going on as long as I've been in martial arts... probably longer... and I've always found the ones I use work, and the schematic for knockouts is usually workable if you're doing kata correctly.

Whoever started teaching pressure points as a separate skill did all kempo and karate players a real disservice, because the skill and access to them is usually found in the kata as designed by the master technicians who developed it. Thinking you can just walk up and "hit a spot" and drop somebody is like any other stupid concept that people who know little of the background skills will come up with in combat arts.

Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM, for the novices) developed the "meridian system" to chart and define the body's energy system. The "pressure point phenomena" was developed as they found the effects of those hitting points and combinations of hitting points while actually treating patients... so the basis of hitting points IS found in TCM... but it isn't necessarily developed with the same definitions of point locations that are used for hitting points. Where "needle points" are very small and precise, the hitting points tsubos are about the size of a quarter, and generally located almost directly on top of the needling points in most cases (but not all).

Where needling is a method of introducing conductance or shorting out an electrical signal in the nervous system, the hitting points phenomena works almost totally off the autonomic nervous system, or the primary nerve bundle locations.

If you try to learn them from TCM, you will go crazy. If you learn them from kata, they will work fine for the applications of the kata and in self defense situations... and are not necessarily all directed at knocking someone out. Just as you, yourself,Underdog, use them as "motivators", they are often designed to disarm or disable someone from using a limb or from being able to respond to a trauma situation at the tsubo.

What is seldom taught or studied are the long term effects of hitting points on the body of the uke, and they are serious if repeated attacks to particular points in the body are used as targets. One observable phenomena is when there are constant attacks to the lung meridian points in the arms and wrist. The long term effect there is the development of asthma or breathing problems with fluid accumulations in the lungs.

Modern Western medicine has many treatments that shortcut those effects today, but if you go back to the time when all the science of hitting points was developed, the TCM treatments were the only available pathways to return someone to good health... which is why Dim Mak or "poison hand" developed such a reputation.

While there have been endless arguments both here and other places about whether or not you have to kill someone to train in Dim Mak, I would ask someone if they have to shoot someone with a pistol to know that it's dangerous? The idea that it only works if you produce a dead body is like those people who don't believe in gravity... until they fall down with some force.

In doing Aikido, people seldom realize how hard they actually throw themselves until they meet the mats for the first time (of being thrown hard). It's at that point that the "lights come on" and their path becomes "redirection".

Fighting against pressure points is kind of like being seasick... the first five minutes, you think you're going to die... the last five, you're afraid you won't...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#298118 - 01/31/07 02:52 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Why dont these things work on everyone? Why are some highly susceptible while others virtually immune? What happens when you meet that person that it doesnt work on? Also, dont many of these types of applications require hitting more than one point?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298119 - 01/31/07 09:38 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Chen Zen]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
There are probably many different reasons why some people are nonresponders. I don't think anyone is a nonresponder to all points in all applications. I seem to be a nonresponder to head strikes. I think I know why.

In my case, I think I am a nonresponder to head points because the people who think they can KO me really have a hard time psychologically to hitting me with intention. My coach can and he has come the closest. I went down once and came up seeing double for about 15 seconds. So reason #1 would be skill of the attacker and intent.

Second would be that people who don't respond to one point are more likely to respond to the next point down the (meridian) line. That is what Dillman says. I have no research to back that up.

The next reason would be that some people are more tolerant to the dizziness or resist going down for a "stage 1" or "stage 2" KO. You might need to put them "out" as in a stage 3. We don't practice that way. At least most of us don't. It is safer to just go ahead and let that person be a nonresponder.

Next there are anatomical differences such as the size of a foramen. These are holes in bone through which nerves and blood vessels emerge. A large foramen is easier to hit and would have a better effect. Other important differences might be the length of a ligament or how "cut" a person is since nerves and blood vessels can be found in the cracks between muscles.

Another problem is the skill and knowledge level of the attacker. Some points set up others. Fortunately, the body often moves in a way so that it tells you where to hit next. Opposite quadrants is a good way to go. There are other clues and guidelines.

Now this covers the "striking" applications. Remember that we also use points for grappling and tuite applications and take downs and so on. I think most of the time when people talk about nonresponders, they are talking about "striking". I know that as a "nonresponder", I surprise some people with my ability to resist the pain and the action of having my head turned via SJ 17, as an example, and there are others. Here the problem is that I have all my energy invested in resisting. I respond much better with a set up that takes my energy away from the particular point.

So yes, there are nonresponder situations for a variety of valid reasons. But then, OK move on. Do all your leg sweeps work? Do all your tuite work? Do you know someone with an iron wrist that just can not be manipulated? Is there someone you can't choke out?

No specialized type of offense is going to work in all cases. That is why we train a more complete martial art. For me, pressure points is PART of what I do. My Dan rank certificates do not say "Kyusho".

For me, I can learn something that I can use and want in anybodies dojo. I also believe that if you came to my dojo on Kyusho day, you could learn something that would improve what you do too.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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