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#298080 - 11/06/06 04:45 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: kyokushinkai]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I didn't take exception with any of your comments but I do agree with McSensei about people wanting the goods without putting in the time.

Those little diagrams you see on the net are perfect for learning PP's. In addition to that buy a few books and DVD's (Dillmans first two books are an execellent place to start despite what anyone says) along with a PP atlas the Dragon society has a really cheap and finally buy an anatomical book. Then grab yourself a willing training partner, pick a point and start poking each other. If you hit an ouchy point and start playing with it. Go on some seminars and if you want to go into the Kyusho start of things (I didn't) find a good teacher. By simply having a few books and a willing chew toy you intuitive knowledge of how to attack the human structure will go through the roof. You just need to get off ya behind and start learning.

Then you can start asking questions like "I've been trying to find what I think is Stomach 9 in the neck but I'm having a bit of trouble... can you help?". Using the chinese termingology is a lot easier than using the anatomical descriptions (which if you really want to find points you'll need. What sounds eaiser GB31 and taking a quick peek at a PP chart or me saying "On the midline of the lateral aspect of the thigh, midway between the greater trochanter and the level of the transverse knee crease"? I'm affraid saying it's on the outside edge of the thigh about half way down doesn't really cut it.
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#298081 - 11/06/06 05:39 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
pPerfect Gav is back.

Gav I got a hold of Jack Hogans 4 dvds on pressure points, small circle theory and ofcourse the infamous no touch knockouts that he Dillman and others are travelling the world demonstrating.

What I want to ask you because you seem to know a lot on this stuff. In one of the demos Mr. Hogan quicly slapped a student in the upper jaw line to knock them out. Then he did something more advance where he slapped both sides of the jaw line one after the other. The target are was high up on the jaw line, he says the biger the jaw line the better because it's easer to see and hit. He his the jaw line with an open hand palm strike.

He did this while he was on the bottom gaurd position on the floor. He knocked the person who was on the top of himin the monted postion. If this works so easily without applying mcuh strength and energy, why is this technique not used in UFC, Pride and other MMA matches?

Gav, I'm in no way making fun of the art. I am just asking a question that should be answered because if this pp stuff is effective and very simple like these prestgious Martial artist claim the techniques are, then why is it not used in situations such as MMA matches?

I recall in video you and your friends made you demonstrated some of the pp techniques. And it did not look like you used a lot of strenth to apply them. So my question is since many pp are open targets in MMA matches why do these mma guys not use them to simply knock out their opponents?
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#298082 - 11/06/06 07:02 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Tsuruken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Australia
No Touch Knockouts??? Tell us more about your views on this?
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#298083 - 11/06/06 09:20 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Tsuruken]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Underdog is back too. Let us not discuss "no-touch" knockouts. Please read everything posted on this FA site on the topic FIRST. Then and only then, if you REALLY have something DIFFERENT to say, should you consider it. The topic never convinces anyone of anything and seems to carry the weight of an artical of faith. It just makes people angry. Let these three be banned: politics, religion and no-touch knock-outs.
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#298084 - 11/07/06 07:19 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

So my question is since many pp are open targets in MMA matches why do these mma guys not use them to simply knock out their opponents?




Great great great question Tek!

Before I give you a answer I'll just point out that I don't practice Kyusho. I use PP's to increase my knowledgeo of how to attack the body, bypass it's structural strength and attack its structual weaknesses... nothing more nothing less.

The stuff we done in the clips was mainly eye candy. They do bloody hurt and are great for getting a "Wow" factor, but in reality in a live situation those points wouldn't get anywhere near the same effect at those power levels.

Once you slip into combat mode the physiology of your body changes. Your body prepares for the worst. It supercharges all the systems that it'll need for survival. Pain becomes a less useful sensation as it can actually inhibit our ability to survive. Therefore our body's need to register pain is kinda sat on the back burner.

In sparring when you get whacked on the nose when does it hurt? During sparring or after when the gloves are off and your body slips out of combat mode? I'm putting money that its afterwards for obvious reasons. If during the sparring you hunched over and going "Oooh my nose smarts" what would happen? You'd get bashed up even more. So our body changes the way it responds to the stimulus of pain during a stressful "Fight or Flight" response because the delay of the reaction to pain is actually counter productive to our body doing want it needs to do.... it's only afterwards the pain comes to haunt you with a vegence.

The guys who walk out into the octagan are already in combat mode and their body's are prepared for a beating.

If you look at the energetics (substituted for body language if you're uncomfortable with the term "energetics") of the people being hit in the PP demo's... they are expecting to get hurt. I shouldn't really put this on the web but WTF! Look back over my promo clip at the PP pokes and hits, watch the body language of those being whacked... they are waiting for the pain. They completely open their body up for messing with and low and behold it bloody hurts. If your holding the pad for someone, just before they land you brace for impact don't you? Doing the same thing with PP's achieves a similiar result and negates a lot of the effect. Remeber pain is merely physical stimulus registed in the brain. You can actually, to varying degrees, train your body how to respond to pain. Notice how hard sparring never seems quite as hard once you're used to it?

This is the issue I have without with most of the PP demo's I see... they are done on opponents whose energetics are completely the opposite to that of a real combat situation. And also the person who is doing the demo is performing the techniques by engaging a part of the brain that actually is switched off during combat... the whole thing is totally unrealistic. I love the PP's pre-emptively and think the sudden onset of pain in an unprepared opponent puts so much shock into their system you can tear them to pieces... put for a prepared opponent who is engaged into combat mode they ain't going to have any near the effect.

If you take the GV26 I done in the clip here Graham didn't have time to pre-pare for the shot and his body slipped into a state of shock, if he'd prepared for it the effect would have been far less dramtic. Try it with a partner! In my article "The Hunters Mindset" in Tales and Stories I mention a "window of opportunity" that's the bit just prior to the switch into combat mode. Once you're actually fighting that window of opportunity is lost and most of the PP applications you seen on the net are all but worthless... prior to that, pre-emptively before the "Switch" they can be very potent. UFC guys have already undergone the "Switch".

Bit of an essay but I hope it answers your question. Remember there is a very distinct difference between the UFC and the real world of street violence.

Gav
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#298085 - 11/07/06 07:26 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm not a big UFC fight fan but when people show me a clip, I can see lots of pp techniques in there. They do seem effective even in combat mode. I also use them in the hospital for locks and controls when someone is in combat mode and I find they work. The important issue is that they work in conjunction with good style technique. They are in there, in your kata, in the way people have been telling you how to get your locks and everything. With the study of PP and intention, everything comes together and gets a bit better. If you think you're going to walk up to a combative person's St 5 and clock them on one or both sides of the jaw as Master Hogan did, well that kind of thing only happens in a teaching demo where uke is allowing you to demonstrate a particular hit in a sterile context. You need your martial arts techniques to create the opportunity to get in there to hit St 5. Then when you are in and in motion, so that the fighters are not grounding and constantly changing polarity, it is easier. Also with the PP skill level higher, if the aggressor's head turns so that St 5 is not right, you have the skill to hit an alternative point that is in the neighborhood but has a slightly different location or angle of attack. From my point of view, I practice PP. We incorporate them into EVERYTHING that we do. I use them to assist throws, strikes, leg sweeps, everything. If I am cross checking empty handed against a knife attack, why not slam on an arm PP and maybe loosen the grip on the knife or cause a little pain to make it harder for my training partner to hit me with his next strike. It isn't just about KO although I do more of those too.


Edited by underdog (11/07/06 07:35 AM)
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#298086 - 11/07/06 07:56 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good post, Gav. Very important to consider the opponent's mindset and physical preparedness in terms of pressure point application.
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#298087 - 11/07/06 08:02 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Good post, Gav. Very important to consider the opponent's mindset and physical preparedness in terms of pressure point application.




They're important factors to consider in any applications!
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Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#298088 - 11/07/06 09:41 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Excellant post Gav, you answered my question. I never considered the opponenets physioligcal state. All I ever consider is the persons, attack, intention, and state of mind. I forgot that while adrenaline pumps you feel less pain.

I figured since MMA matches are the closest thing to real world practice so far, they would be a great example as to why facial pp spots especially the ones used in demos that knock people out.

So are you still kempo-jutsu or are you a different style now?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#298089 - 11/07/06 10:37 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Not formally doing Kempo at the moment although I've done it for so long now there's always gonna be a bit of Kempo in everything I do. At the moment the work I'm doing through Combat Arena is keeping me more than busy refining and researching my combat training. I've also started Yang style Tai Chi with Steve Rowe (Bossman from the forum) which is like going to MA University and combined with my Shiatsu studies and practice there isn't a lot more time for anything else. So not offically doing any Kempo at hte moment but still training hard!

Thing to remember about the MMA style training, if you get the stage where you're using that style of fighting you are, well fighting. When there are no rules in place we should be looking to take our opponent out before they make that switch. Afterall they could be some sort of MMA god or something. Don't fighter a fighter!
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