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#298100 - 11/09/06 07:24 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I am familiar with most of the DKI greats. I've been to Deer Lake MATC and had worn out most of my Dillman tapes before I met Master Pantazi. I still order teaching materials from DKI folks when it is right. I do not know anything about Master Lake's current condition. So it's your turn. What happened to Ed Lake?
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#298101 - 11/09/06 07:34 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
kungfugerbil Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 3
kung fu has plenty of pressure points as well as most traditional arts like kenpo, karate, real judo/ jiu jitsu, aikido, kajukenbo, arnis/silat/kuntao etc..

pressure points like dim mak is very useful in countering various attacks including ground fighting for the JIU JITSU/WRESTLING only crowd especially those in the no holds bar sports.
I've used actual pressure points in self defense and in practice to get out of a hold or to remove an enemy from my presence. Pressure points is a much needed and completion of an effective fighting art, whatever it may be!

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#298102 - 11/10/06 05:09 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Tek wants to take credit for splitting the mod's up! Cool let 'im have it! Matt - I now see Tek as a totally disruptive influence, he pits members of our wonderful forum against each other and is obviously a troll (I put forward his statements wanting to take credit for the break in ranks as evidence!). I feel an immeadiate banning and execution via firing squad should appease this injustice. *Calling Tek, calling Tek... would you please report to the wall around the back of the building on the double please!*

Quote:

I disagree about knock-outs.




How dare ye! Why I've never been so insulted in all my life! Someone who doesn't take my word as the gospel truth! Ok gloves off, let's have it!

Quote:

When you see training clips of KOs done statically, that is a training stage. The goal is to do them in motion against real attacks or as good an attack as you can get in practice. Knock-outs are part of the arsenal. The standing KO is done occaisionally, lightly, under supervision and results in no permanent issues.




Fully accept that standing KO's are done as part of the learning process, but I question their relevance of their usefulness in actual combat. When the body moves into fight or flight there are physiological changes that I have already mentioned. From a TCM point of view if something changes physically there will also be an energetic change. The body chemical and energetic system completely changes as it adapts to protect itself from the threat. As such a KO utilising energetic principles against a static body which is not engaged in fight or flight will not respond the same way as does under fight or flight. The energetic balances of the body are shifted round to protect itself. Rand Cardwell made an interesting attempt to investigate the influences of the fight or flight response from a TCM point of view in his book "The Western Bubishi".

Also the physiological state of the person doing the knockout is completely wrong. In a standing relaxed state you are learning the techniques, cycles and theories into a part of the brain which is actually bypassed in combat. So even from an educational training point of view these exercises are not ingraining combat relevant skills into the body.

I've been made privvy to a few clips in the past of motion KO's and again these are not being trained realistically IMHO. Neither the attackers nor the defenders are ever in a state of "fight or flight". I've seen some very embrassing attempts of Uke's being told to "Fire themselves up" where by they slap themselves about the face and think "bad thoughts". This doesn't bring on a state of Fight or flight that matches anything real.

The only time I'd be impressed with a demo is when it's done against some who is gloved up trying to actually spark the PP attacker out using totally random untimed attacks. That would get a realistic level of adrenal response from person excuting the PP KO's. I would put money that 98%+ of their stuff will go out of the window.

I think Scott covered the point about overloading the circuit breaker, so I'll skip that one.

Quote:

Bones and joints were not meant to be broken but I learn techniques to break them. The head and torso were not meant to be pummeled by hands and feet trained to deliver full power but I practice striking so that I can hit with quality if I have to. Muscles were not meant to be torn from the tendons but I practice seizing/grasping techniqes to help free myself should I need to.




This is an interesting point. We do practice techniques that can break stuff, tear tendons and smash up joints. We practice techniques that will shatter bones and tear things out of their sockets... but we practice them to point just before causing damage. We exercise common sense because other wise there'd be a lot of crippled MA's. Why can't the same be done with KO's? I think that we're both agreed that artifically hyper-extending a limb outside of it's natural range of movements is a bad thing. I find it really hard to see why people think its OK to take a human being outside of its natural state of wakefulness. Seems a bit of a double standard to me?

Please don't take any of this to heart Roseanne... you know I have a great deal of respect for you. But they wanted discussion... let's give it to them!

Gav

PS. Scott - Thanks for the compliment, it was you who put me on the path my friend. Who'd have thunk a year ago I'd be doing Tai Chi! Also could you please comment more on the long term effects of PP practice from your experience and point of view!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#298103 - 11/10/06 09:03 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Wait, huh, what? Gav I hope your joking the last thing I need is to be banned again and to resume the position of graveling for fogiveness.

I have nothing to do with mods being upset with each other, infact I rarely come onto this forum, i just posted a question as a favor to those folks who thought this forum was dead. I was only taking credit for helping revive this forum back to life. Sheesh

I spread good will, not ill will and the reason why I'm babbling now is because I don't know if your joking or not and I could possibly be banened and I would't even have the slightest idea why.

Incase your reading this Matt I have no idea what is going on, and I sware I did nothing to irritate anyone. Please don't ban me. One more time, please don't ban me. I promise never ever to come into this pp forum again. come to thnk of it has it been my 1 year aniversery yet?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#298104 - 11/10/06 09:05 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
When you practice joint locks, you stop when you feel the joint set, or when uke slaps out. You stop short of damage. This is the same as for any other category of practice. We practice with toy knives and guns or shock knives, or dulled trainer knives so that we can develop skills without injury. The same is also true of KO. When we practice KO, we shoot for a moment of dysfunction, not a total black-out. It isn't the same as a boxer, who, after a career of full contact strikes to the head acquires a dementia.

KO is actually a very small piece of the whole anyway. No one wants to get KO'd all the time, nor is it allowed.

There are enough war stories amongst practitioners who have used the KO in actual self defense to convince me that there is something to it. I am aware that if the defender chose instead to break a person's arm, that would be easier to believe, unless there was concern about energetics and maybe not really breaking the arm because of fight or flight response. That action causes more damage than a KO. Striking the head to knock someone out by blunt force causes far more harm than hitting the foramen in the skull, holes that are already there. Does your other self defense include striking to the head? Why not hit a PP at the correct angle and direction? If you are going to strike arms, legs, heads, body, head anyway, what do you have against hitting on points when it matters most?

One problem I am having is that no one has mentioned what harm the occaisional practice of light KO does. Therefore it is hard to come up with a rebuttal. That is why I'd really like to hear from Kempoman about Ed Lake. I want to know how he is, firstly because he is someone I respect and Kempoman knows something about him that would interest me.

Secondly, Ed Lake is being held up as an example of PP KO damage. I don't know the issue or what is attributable to PP practice and what to age, or genetics or other neurological process. Kempoman offered to supply information. Please give the information.

I don't even know which points are allegedly causing the problem. I know I don't strike vital points deliverately. There are a lot of points I would use in all out self defense that I would never strike in practice. I don't hit St 9. I don't hit the eye or groin or St 17. I don't hit yintang or taiyang. I think one thing that has happened to the evolution of modern pp practice is to make it less lethal and more self defense oriented.

That terribly forceful KO that evoked such horror from all of us that was posted recently, that is not how we practice. THAT was hermful. The whole scenario was bad.

Let's start with telling me what the concern in general is. What kind of practice are you worried about and what kind of damage and what happened to Ed Lake.

Who are you Kempoman? I seem to recall that Mark Kline knows you but I am not sure at all about that. It was an old conversation. From your profile, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do. Maybe I shouldn't be pursuing this at all.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#298105 - 11/10/06 09:28 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Tek... me JOKE? Right your banned! That's it! Ya gone! Never darken our doors again you evil sinner! Where's my gun? Doh... forgot I live in the UK... we're not allowed guns! Well go and buy yourself one and do it for me!

Tek you've been here long enough to know that EVERYTHING I type is always slightly light hearted (usually totally!)... arh, you're sooooooooooooo sweet when you get all nervous and aplogetic!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#298106 - 11/10/06 11:19 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
See, now the forum is fun again! NOthing like a little discord to get the fires of conversation going again.

Quote:

I am familiar with most of the DKI greats. I've been to Deer Lake MATC and had worn out most of my Dillman tapes before I met Master Pantazi. I still order teaching materials from DKI folks when it is right. I do not know anything about Master Lake's current condition. So it's your turn. What happened to Ed Lake?




Quote:

Secondly, Ed Lake is being held up as an example of PP KO damage. I don't know the issue or what is attributable to PP practice and what to age, or genetics or other neurological process. Kempoman offered to supply information. Please give the information.




Quote:

Let's start with telling me what the concern in general is. What kind of practice are you worried about and what kind of damage and what happened to Ed Lake.





I'm not quite sure what you are asking for here


First of all let me say that Ed Lake is a great person, competent martial artist and my comments about him are not meant to be disparaging in the slightest.

Have you ever seen Ed get KO'd Rosanne? It is not pretty. The slightest touch puts him straight out and deeper than anyone I've ever seen. The damage was evident even over ten years ago.

In fact at one particular seminar in NJ George KO'd him using bladder points. It was indeed ugly. There were several complications during the revival. Ed's heart has stopped and he was not breathing. When finally revived his face and entire right side of his body was afflicted with what seemed to be Bell's palsey. The effects of this one KO tool over 1hr of work to set right.

Please tell me how this was benign. Heart stoppage is not benign. Neural paralysis is not benign.

Now granted Ed is perhaps the exception because he was George's personal uke for so long, but there are others who were there in the beginning who show the same symptoms (Rick Clark for one).

In addition there have been no long term studies on the effects of adding input into the nervous system like is done when attempting KO's.

Have you ever noticed that people tend to use the same uke's for the same KO's at seminars? They respond very well to the techniques, but when a KO is tried on someone new the effects are not quite as impressive.

Some have suggested (myself included) that it is some sort of suggestion/hypnosis that makes this so, but I also think that the nerves may become conditioned to respond in a particular manner or they may have been agitated enough that it doesn't take much to effect the shutdown. Is this damage? Could be.

Perhaps the damage is undone over time. I have seen evidence to suggest this.

I know that when I was playing KO-bitch in order to be able to learn I would go out like a light. Now, not so much. The last time George hit me, I just stood there and looked at him.


Quote:

I don't even know which points are allegedly causing the problem.




These are not points, they are connected neurological pathways which tend to overload a crainal nerve.

Quote:

I think one thing that has happened to the evolution of modern pp practice is to make it less lethal and more self defense oriented.




Yes, and it not effective and it is not tuite/kyusho jutsu. It is a new thing that uses acupuncture points in self-defense.

Real tuite/kyusho jutsu will hurt you...bad

Quote:

One problem I am having is that no one has mentioned what harm the occaisional practice of light KO does. Therefore it is hard to come up with a rebuttal.




If you follow the rules...no more than 15 mins per week, you are safe. However, even the 'masters' don't follow this rule and it is rarely occasional.


Quote:

There are enough war stories amongst practitioners who have used the KO in actual self defense to convince me that there is something to it. I am aware that if the defender chose instead to break a person's arm, that would be easier to believe, unless there was concern about energetics and maybe not really breaking the arm because of fight or flight response. That action causes more damage than a KO. Striking the head to knock someone out by blunt force causes far more harm than hitting the foramen in the skull, holes that are already there. Does your other self defense include striking to the head? Why not hit a PP at the correct angle and direction? If you are going to strike arms, legs, heads, body, head anyway, what do you have against hitting on points when it matters most?




Never said that tuite/kyusho jutsu doesn't work. Only that the clap-trap sold at the seminars and on video tapes by the new generation of 'masters' will get you hurt.

You only have access to gross motor movement in a real fight and energetics, polarity and where my foot is goes right out the window.


Quote:

I've been made privvy to a few clips in the past of motion KO's and again these are not being trained realistically IMHO. Neither the attackers nor the defenders are ever in a state of "fight or flight". I've seen some very embrassing attempts of Uke's being told to "Fire themselves up" where by they slap themselves about the face and think "bad thoughts". This doesn't bring on a state of Fight or flight that matches anything real.





While training with movement is better than training statically I have to agree with Gav here. You just can't get off the same techniques when the pucker factor is about 9.5.


Quote:

Who are you Kempoman? I seem to recall that Mark Kline knows you but I am not sure at all about that. It was an old conversation. From your profile, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do. Maybe I shouldn't be pursuing this at all.





Nobody really. I am an old friend of George and Kim and have been lucky to train with some very talented people over the years.


Rosanne please dont take these comments as a personal attack on you, the organization you belong to or any of your teachers.

Mark, Evan, Jim, Gary and everyone else from DKI that is now KI are great people and extremely talented.

I just take some exception to what is being taught and state for the record that something has changed and what is taught is not tuite/kyusho jutsu.


--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#298107 - 11/10/06 02:17 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
It is true that the study of modern Kyusho is changing and is not the killer Dim Mak of older military use. For many a modern "warrior" like me working in a hospital, or for policemen commissioned to serve and protect, and for personal self defense, this is often a good thing. Why knock it? Would it be better for us to practice killing people the way the ancients did?

If the problem is that Ed Lake goes out easily now, oh well, he isn't under 40 anymore, which is one of the rules. These things are individual. People get more vulnerable over time. So are his bones and joints and everything else. I'm not really sensative on head points. I've only gone down once. I get buzzed which in a fight means I wouldn't be able to fight back fast enough, but not out in the dramatic way people want to see on clips. I just get effected enough to loose a fight had it been real. That is good enough. Usually when we practice, this is all we need. It is a stage 1. Are you regarding THIS kind of practice as problematic.

We practice fewer knock-outs than we used to. My first KO seen by Master Pantazi was done very early in my training. It was in a class taught and supervised by him using class material from that class. I compare that to this past weekend in France. Last week, after several years study and preparing for entry level practioner/instructor level (which I hope I'll test for next year in Barcelona), I was the lowest ranked person to do a KO at the seminar. This is new. In the past, "demonstrations" would have gone on for ever as even middle ranked folks would get up and do their KOs.

In other areas of my martial arts, I have had a broken 5th rib, I've broken thumbs three times doing things like knife disarms. I've broken toes many times. Right now, I still have a healing finger fracture from tuite finger locks from July. None of these injuries were Kyusho related. This is MARTIAL ARTS. It isn't an Tupperware party.

Eventually all of us, probably me sooner than you, will need to decide that it is time to stop training the contact aspects of martial arts. The risks get too high. This is true of Kyusho and it is true of all the rest too. Maybe it is time for Ed Lake. There is no disgrace in getting older.

People respond similarly to KOs because of energetics not hypnosis, reflexes and other anatomical factors. This is true of other pain responses and many other responses that can be exploited. With practice and study, you can learn and anticipate what uke will present for the next attack because you know the cross extensor reflex etc. You know that Yang strikes produce one set of responses and Yin another. This is not new.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#298108 - 11/13/06 08:47 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
justincase Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 4
I would like to ask who made up the 15 minute rule a week of KO beeing OK. I still think that all KO or bad for your health.

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#298109 - 11/13/06 01:11 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: justincase]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
To the best of my knowledge, it was Master Dillman. How he got it, I don't know.

I know that in KI, there has been some research with EEGs, VS and more, medical research. I am not qualified to speak about it so please don't ask. Doctors within the organization will have something to publish, I believe next year. I know that I was involved in data collection but I don't know what the bigger picture is. When the researched is published, I'll know and maybe post then.

One thing that is annoying is for people to say that there is or even is not, damage, with nothing but their "ought to be's" or other nonresearched based reasoning, to guide them.

I didn't realize, until this thread, that there were so many practitioners of kyusho, including my co-mod, who did not practice KO and who are against it. Now I know so I'm that much smarter. What of it? Everyone is entitled to his opinion and at this point, there isn't anything to argue about. It is part of the warp and whoof that makes this forum diverse and interesting. No winners. No loosers.

The grossest thing I have ever seen in a clip of someone's practice was a blood choke. I would never practice that way. OK so I saw the clip- I know what a person looks like in a blood choke- but it is way too dangerous for my approval. I am aware now that the KO evokes the same response from other people.

At one point in another thread, a horribly foreful and repeated KO occured. I thought the clip showed horrible abuse and I spoke out against it. I wanted to post a few of my own kinder gentler KOs to show how KO practice should be. There were instructors, approval for the moves, less force and so on. Fortunately, since it was a bad idea, I couldn't post them. Actually Gavin offered space on his sight for me to link to. So for now, If you don't think KO are safe to practice, don't practice them. If you do, find a good teaching situation and you'll probably want to keep quiet about it on FA because it is the minority practice.

If there are enough interested people, maybe we can post about what works and responses we get, but I don't see that there are enough interested people. I know that I intend to keep peace and keep my training to myself in this regard. I know that I don't want to be in a position of guaranteeing for anyone, particuarly an unsupervised beginner, that KO are safe. I'm not going there. All of martial arts practice is potentially dangerous. That is why they make you sign those little release forms when you sign up in a school.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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