Do you think that is wise to use pressure points and not knowing what they do to your energy system as a hole? Internal organs and also emotional and behavioral concequences. I noticed, that a lot of pressure point users have no knowledge of medical side of presure points and that makes me really sad. I think, that you (like Gavin) should have some knowledge ot Shiatsu, or TCM. Poking the points in training and not knowing what harm there can be done is irresponsible. Like I said, there is a lot of side efects and not only, I struck a point, my leg went numbed, but now it's ok. Body has a tendency to fix an energy imbalance on its own, but there is a limit. Try not to use knock outs in your everyday training or any other points that wil couse qi and emotional drainage. My 50 cents.
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I personally think people think too much about specific PP energetic damage. Everyday of our lives we take whacks and knocks to our energetic systems. The way we live, the food we eat, the way we sit, the way we train, the way we love... everything is relevant. Anything done to excess will cause a problem energetically from a TCM point of view. Our training, aswell as our lives, needs balance. If this balance is lost then problems occur.

I said it before that I don't agree with knockouts in training. If the body was meant to be shut on and off it would have been equiped with an On/off switch. Both TCM and MWM practioners whole heartedly agree that being put unconcious unnaturally is a bad thing. No ifs, or buts about that. I've also stated in the thread about my opinon of most of the PP demo's I've seen. People are being put under in completely unrealistic conditions, so what are they proving by knocking each other out? It's a party trick at best and an excercise that may be causing long term damage at worst.

PP's done to excess will cause problems. Heavy sparring done to excess will cause problems. Sex done to excess will cause problems. Oxygen done to excess will cause problems. PP practice is made out to be the big bad wolf of the training world which is a total myth. Energetically we are doing far more damage to ourselves by the way we live our daily lives than we ever will poking a few PP's.

Makes me laugh that some will tell you how much damage you're doing to you're "energetics" at the same time as they smoke a blunt whilst knocking back a Bud and a big greasy Cheese burger... meanwhile at home their spouse is crying themselves to sleep and their children are growing up on a steady diet of neglect and negative emotions. Any damage that PP's will do to them energetically is like throwing bricks in the grand cayon!

As long as you are sensible and approach your training with a balanced mind you shouldn't go too far wrong!

LOL Tell us how you really feel, Gav.

I loved your post earlier in this thread talking about mindset an "Fight or Flight", excellent stuff.

I disagree about knock-outs. They are very definately a part of my training. Knock-outs are an advanced technique for self defense. When you see training clips of KOs done statically, that is a training stage. The goal is to do them in motion against real attacks or as good an attack as you can get in practice. Knock-outs are part of the arsenal. The standing KO is done occaisionally, lightly, under supervision and results in no permanent issues. Just like learning to defend against a knife attack is done in progessive stages, so too is learning to do a KO.

Bones and joints were not meant to be broken but I learn techniques to break them. The head and torso were not meant to be pummeled by hands and feet trained to deliver full power but I practice striking so that I can hit with quality if I have to. Muscles were not meant to be torn from the tendons but I practice seizing/grasping techniqes to help free myself should I need to.

In the grand scheme of things, a KO on pressure points that overloads the nervous system and shuts it down momentarily without the force of real head trauma/blunt trauma, is benign.

At work a couple of weeks ago, a coworker was attacked by two teenaged girls armed with a hairbrush. Their objective was to pummel her, knock her unconscious with blunt force tauma so that staff would be sufficiently tied up and another kid could attack and kill a nurse for her keys. No one died, but two staff were very badly injured. I have a bit of survivor guilt because I know that had I been there instead, the outcome would have been different. A KO, if I were lucky enough to pull it off, would have resulted in whole lots less damage to the kids than a joint break that a more traditionally trained martial artist may have done. A light touch KO would offer far less risk of litigation than breaking someone's bones.

I think the key is training and how you train. No one should be practicing KO without good instruction and supervision and no one should be training pressure points at all without learning revival/restoration techniques and good guidance. Sure a pressure point might just help you get a tuite technique on that was difficult before. At the other end, it could be lethal. Like most things in MARTIAL (military) arts, training and supervision are key.

Roseanne -

I generally agree with Gav on training KO's for most people, although I can understand your perspective. You are certainly in a position to really need to know how to work them realistically.

Sorry Gav I've got to take some of this credit also...People please remmber, gav would not have posted such a great post if I did not ask the right question. Thank you, thank you, no really no need for applause.

And you guys said this forum was dead....MUhahahahahaha

silly rabits

I'll weigh in although I probably shouldn't (and I am sure that I have said this before)...

There are precious few combninations of things that will produce an actual knock out when dealing with PP's.

Even fewer that will produce a KO in a real combat situation.

but, there are points that work under duress and even work better when the person is switched into combat mode.

That being said...

Most of the things that you see in seminars and touted as being knock outs by Kyusho masters aren't.

Most of the information that is taught at seminars is very low level stuff and will not work when you need it to (unless you need it to work in a seminar )

Another set of the information taught in kyusho schools is just plain incorrect and will not produce the reactions seen.

Quote:

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In the grand scheme of things, a KO on pressure points that overloads the nervous system and shuts it down momentarily without the force of real head trauma/blunt trauma, is benign.[

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ephasis mine

I take extreme exception to this statement. Where is the evidence to suggest such a thing?

Is overloading a circuit breaker benign? or does it eventually become weak and fail more often?

Now there is not much danger from most of the techniques done in today's kyusho schools, because they have lost
much information. That being said macking on St-5,6 on a regular basis is not a good idea.

Gavin you make many excellent points, color me extra-impressed at how far you have come in such a short period of time.

In the end kyusho and pressure-points are much like religion you will beleive what you are taught until you test much of it for yourself
and then find the information lacking. Then you will begin to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A visit to the right Rev. Oyata can help speed you along your way.

Is someone keeping count on the many, many posts being typed on this dead forum?

Fine. You must be right.