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#298070 - 10/31/06 04:16 PM This forum is dead.
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I've just noticed this, which is a huge shame. I find pressure points really interesting and quite amazing.

The amount of damage one can inflict. The simpleness, there is some sort of elegance about PP's which I find intriguing. I don't seem to have much of a point to this thread, not much of a topic, but I'm just trying to bring some life to this forum. So I guess I'll ask....

What intrigues you about pressure points?
What's your favourite pressure point to strike?
Is there a martial art devoted to pressure points?

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#298071 - 11/01/06 10:48 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Landus]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I didn't think the forum was dead exactly, just a low traffic area! The provocative title you gave your thread caught my eye. I'm not sure about your motivation.

I like pressure points because they are the unsung common denominator for just about all technique except the "slug'em as hard as you can" technique. My favorite pressure point is the one that is there when I need it. My own belief is that pressure points are there, or were there, or could be added to any style. I'm expecting to meet practitioners from styles I never heard of and then some in France this weekend at the K.I. international conference.

What is your background in PP Landus, and who are you? Your profile gave no clue.
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#298072 - 11/01/06 12:51 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
jamesjj Offline
Member

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I'm pretty sure that the Northern Eagle Claw system has a good deal of pressure points. My favorite would have to be the nerves just behind the jaw. Although i've just recently started to learn where pressure points are and my knowledge of them is limited. However i find them very interesting.
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#298073 - 11/03/06 01:46 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: jamesjj]
Landus Offline
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Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I have been learning the application of PP for about 2 years now. I did this before Tai Chi, and I did it as my own sort of art. I currently do kickboxing.

What fueled this post was a mixture of seeing a response I had made about 2 months ago still near the top of the forum. Also, because I would genuinely like to see more about PP's and learn more from people that regularly do them.

I am hoping later on I can put my knowledge to use and possibly take up an art that incorprates it. Like I said, I find PP's incredible, so deadly, yet so oftenly simple.

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#298074 - 11/03/06 08:08 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Landus]
Tsuruken Offline
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Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Australia
Hi Landus,

Lets get this forum moving then shall we?

What intrigues me about pressure points is the relative ease of application and the results of same.

The Gall Bladder points are among my favourites to strike and manipulate.

Taiji is devoted to points as is my own style of White Crane. Every application revolves around the seizing, manipulation or striking of points.
_________________________
Tsuruken:
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#298075 - 11/04/06 01:00 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Landus]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
I think the reason this is a low traffick area is because of the way PP are explained.. They are always explained in meridians etc. Which is natural because its the traditional way, but.. man I have no clue whats ever going on I see like Liver5 or heart3, and am thinking.. man I wish I knew what that ment I bet it would be cool.

If they could be explained by saying like.. In between the shoulder blades closer middle back is a PP which is ( continue rabbling )

This sub-forum is part of the reason I joined FA, but I quickly realized that It is quite hard to decipher these by Text, Some diagrams are present but they are always so small and I can never read the writing. I just see a man in a loincloth and dots on him with lines moving outward.
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#298076 - 11/05/06 11:20 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Landus]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm in the middle of getting Jack Hogans seminar from Fineland. I'm getting all 4 dvds. He discusses, pressure points, Dillmans method, Small circle theory and concepts. I've seen Mr. Dillmans stuff on a couple of documentories and Believe it or not shows, but I've never actually seen the entire seminar. I wonder if this stuff wil be easy to learn. Also I to question lke most other MAist, the practicality of applying pressure point techniques. I am a big believer in vital points, however, I know nothing about pressure points they seem to precise to be of real use in self defense when everything must be done under pressure.

Hmm thats all I have to say, I've really only came in here to let you know I'm getting those 4 dvds and because you guys sem to need some conversation in here, so let me know what you think about Dillman, his seminars, Jack Hogan, the application of pressure points in self defense and so forth.

I'll be back to read your statements. Um please remember that I am a newb to this area. I don't mean to come off saying something like PP's are worthless, but like many I am just skeptical.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298077 - 11/05/06 06:25 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Tsuruken Offline
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Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Australia
TeK9,

Too be honest I'm not a real fan of the Dillman method. I follow the Traditional Chinese Medicine approach to Dim-Mak (Erle Montaigue).
_________________________
Tsuruken:
"I do not know what I know. I 'feel' it, unlike those that think they know, yet know not"

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#298078 - 11/05/06 06:59 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: kyokushinkai]
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Kyok...

I think Gavin may take exception to what you wrote.
His points of the week always come with fairly easy to understand applications and he even posted a video recently in another thread to show how to use them.

http://www.combatarena.co.uk/CA_Instructional_Vid_1.wmv

What more do people want?
Perhaps he should whizz around the place giving one to one demonstrations in peoples living rooms.

Or you could do what I do with PPs. Look at the diagrams that you mention and then have a prod about on yourself to locate them.
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#298079 - 11/06/06 04:45 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Oh boy...I just finished watching the second video of Jack Hogans seminar and he did the no touch knock out.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
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#298080 - 11/06/06 04:45 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: kyokushinkai]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I didn't take exception with any of your comments but I do agree with McSensei about people wanting the goods without putting in the time.

Those little diagrams you see on the net are perfect for learning PP's. In addition to that buy a few books and DVD's (Dillmans first two books are an execellent place to start despite what anyone says) along with a PP atlas the Dragon society has a really cheap and finally buy an anatomical book. Then grab yourself a willing training partner, pick a point and start poking each other. If you hit an ouchy point and start playing with it. Go on some seminars and if you want to go into the Kyusho start of things (I didn't) find a good teacher. By simply having a few books and a willing chew toy you intuitive knowledge of how to attack the human structure will go through the roof. You just need to get off ya behind and start learning.

Then you can start asking questions like "I've been trying to find what I think is Stomach 9 in the neck but I'm having a bit of trouble... can you help?". Using the chinese termingology is a lot easier than using the anatomical descriptions (which if you really want to find points you'll need. What sounds eaiser GB31 and taking a quick peek at a PP chart or me saying "On the midline of the lateral aspect of the thigh, midway between the greater trochanter and the level of the transverse knee crease"? I'm affraid saying it's on the outside edge of the thigh about half way down doesn't really cut it.
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#298081 - 11/06/06 05:39 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
pPerfect Gav is back.

Gav I got a hold of Jack Hogans 4 dvds on pressure points, small circle theory and ofcourse the infamous no touch knockouts that he Dillman and others are travelling the world demonstrating.

What I want to ask you because you seem to know a lot on this stuff. In one of the demos Mr. Hogan quicly slapped a student in the upper jaw line to knock them out. Then he did something more advance where he slapped both sides of the jaw line one after the other. The target are was high up on the jaw line, he says the biger the jaw line the better because it's easer to see and hit. He his the jaw line with an open hand palm strike.

He did this while he was on the bottom gaurd position on the floor. He knocked the person who was on the top of himin the monted postion. If this works so easily without applying mcuh strength and energy, why is this technique not used in UFC, Pride and other MMA matches?

Gav, I'm in no way making fun of the art. I am just asking a question that should be answered because if this pp stuff is effective and very simple like these prestgious Martial artist claim the techniques are, then why is it not used in situations such as MMA matches?

I recall in video you and your friends made you demonstrated some of the pp techniques. And it did not look like you used a lot of strenth to apply them. So my question is since many pp are open targets in MMA matches why do these mma guys not use them to simply knock out their opponents?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#298082 - 11/06/06 07:02 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Tsuruken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Australia
No Touch Knockouts??? Tell us more about your views on this?
_________________________
Tsuruken:
"I do not know what I know. I 'feel' it, unlike those that think they know, yet know not"

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#298083 - 11/06/06 09:20 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Tsuruken]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Underdog is back too. Let us not discuss "no-touch" knockouts. Please read everything posted on this FA site on the topic FIRST. Then and only then, if you REALLY have something DIFFERENT to say, should you consider it. The topic never convinces anyone of anything and seems to carry the weight of an artical of faith. It just makes people angry. Let these three be banned: politics, religion and no-touch knock-outs.
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#298084 - 11/07/06 07:19 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

So my question is since many pp are open targets in MMA matches why do these mma guys not use them to simply knock out their opponents?




Great great great question Tek!

Before I give you a answer I'll just point out that I don't practice Kyusho. I use PP's to increase my knowledgeo of how to attack the body, bypass it's structural strength and attack its structual weaknesses... nothing more nothing less.

The stuff we done in the clips was mainly eye candy. They do bloody hurt and are great for getting a "Wow" factor, but in reality in a live situation those points wouldn't get anywhere near the same effect at those power levels.

Once you slip into combat mode the physiology of your body changes. Your body prepares for the worst. It supercharges all the systems that it'll need for survival. Pain becomes a less useful sensation as it can actually inhibit our ability to survive. Therefore our body's need to register pain is kinda sat on the back burner.

In sparring when you get whacked on the nose when does it hurt? During sparring or after when the gloves are off and your body slips out of combat mode? I'm putting money that its afterwards for obvious reasons. If during the sparring you hunched over and going "Oooh my nose smarts" what would happen? You'd get bashed up even more. So our body changes the way it responds to the stimulus of pain during a stressful "Fight or Flight" response because the delay of the reaction to pain is actually counter productive to our body doing want it needs to do.... it's only afterwards the pain comes to haunt you with a vegence.

The guys who walk out into the octagan are already in combat mode and their body's are prepared for a beating.

If you look at the energetics (substituted for body language if you're uncomfortable with the term "energetics") of the people being hit in the PP demo's... they are expecting to get hurt. I shouldn't really put this on the web but WTF! Look back over my promo clip at the PP pokes and hits, watch the body language of those being whacked... they are waiting for the pain. They completely open their body up for messing with and low and behold it bloody hurts. If your holding the pad for someone, just before they land you brace for impact don't you? Doing the same thing with PP's achieves a similiar result and negates a lot of the effect. Remeber pain is merely physical stimulus registed in the brain. You can actually, to varying degrees, train your body how to respond to pain. Notice how hard sparring never seems quite as hard once you're used to it?

This is the issue I have without with most of the PP demo's I see... they are done on opponents whose energetics are completely the opposite to that of a real combat situation. And also the person who is doing the demo is performing the techniques by engaging a part of the brain that actually is switched off during combat... the whole thing is totally unrealistic. I love the PP's pre-emptively and think the sudden onset of pain in an unprepared opponent puts so much shock into their system you can tear them to pieces... put for a prepared opponent who is engaged into combat mode they ain't going to have any near the effect.

If you take the GV26 I done in the clip here Graham didn't have time to pre-pare for the shot and his body slipped into a state of shock, if he'd prepared for it the effect would have been far less dramtic. Try it with a partner! In my article "The Hunters Mindset" in Tales and Stories I mention a "window of opportunity" that's the bit just prior to the switch into combat mode. Once you're actually fighting that window of opportunity is lost and most of the PP applications you seen on the net are all but worthless... prior to that, pre-emptively before the "Switch" they can be very potent. UFC guys have already undergone the "Switch".

Bit of an essay but I hope it answers your question. Remember there is a very distinct difference between the UFC and the real world of street violence.

Gav
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#298085 - 11/07/06 07:26 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
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I'm not a big UFC fight fan but when people show me a clip, I can see lots of pp techniques in there. They do seem effective even in combat mode. I also use them in the hospital for locks and controls when someone is in combat mode and I find they work. The important issue is that they work in conjunction with good style technique. They are in there, in your kata, in the way people have been telling you how to get your locks and everything. With the study of PP and intention, everything comes together and gets a bit better. If you think you're going to walk up to a combative person's St 5 and clock them on one or both sides of the jaw as Master Hogan did, well that kind of thing only happens in a teaching demo where uke is allowing you to demonstrate a particular hit in a sterile context. You need your martial arts techniques to create the opportunity to get in there to hit St 5. Then when you are in and in motion, so that the fighters are not grounding and constantly changing polarity, it is easier. Also with the PP skill level higher, if the aggressor's head turns so that St 5 is not right, you have the skill to hit an alternative point that is in the neighborhood but has a slightly different location or angle of attack. From my point of view, I practice PP. We incorporate them into EVERYTHING that we do. I use them to assist throws, strikes, leg sweeps, everything. If I am cross checking empty handed against a knife attack, why not slam on an arm PP and maybe loosen the grip on the knife or cause a little pain to make it harder for my training partner to hit me with his next strike. It isn't just about KO although I do more of those too.


Edited by underdog (11/07/06 07:35 AM)
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#298086 - 11/07/06 07:56 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
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Good post, Gav. Very important to consider the opponent's mindset and physical preparedness in terms of pressure point application.
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#298087 - 11/07/06 08:02 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Good post, Gav. Very important to consider the opponent's mindset and physical preparedness in terms of pressure point application.




They're important factors to consider in any applications!
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#298088 - 11/07/06 09:41 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Excellant post Gav, you answered my question. I never considered the opponenets physioligcal state. All I ever consider is the persons, attack, intention, and state of mind. I forgot that while adrenaline pumps you feel less pain.

I figured since MMA matches are the closest thing to real world practice so far, they would be a great example as to why facial pp spots especially the ones used in demos that knock people out.

So are you still kempo-jutsu or are you a different style now?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
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#298089 - 11/07/06 10:37 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Not formally doing Kempo at the moment although I've done it for so long now there's always gonna be a bit of Kempo in everything I do. At the moment the work I'm doing through Combat Arena is keeping me more than busy refining and researching my combat training. I've also started Yang style Tai Chi with Steve Rowe (Bossman from the forum) which is like going to MA University and combined with my Shiatsu studies and practice there isn't a lot more time for anything else. So not offically doing any Kempo at hte moment but still training hard!

Thing to remember about the MMA style training, if you get the stage where you're using that style of fighting you are, well fighting. When there are no rules in place we should be looking to take our opponent out before they make that switch. Afterall they could be some sort of MMA god or something. Don't fighter a fighter!
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#298090 - 11/09/06 05:26 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
justincase Offline
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Do you think that is wise to use pressure points and not knowing what they do to your energy system as a hole? Internal organs and also emotional and behavioral concequences. I noticed, that a lot of pressure point users have no knowledge of medical side of presure points and that makes me really sad. I think, that you (like Gavin) should have some knowledge ot Shiatsu, or TCM. Poking the points in training and not knowing what harm there can be done is irresponsible. Like I said, there is a lot of side efects and not only, I struck a point, my leg went numbed, but now it's ok. Body has a tendency to fix an energy imbalance on its own, but there is a limit. Try not to use knock outs in your everyday training or any other points that wil couse qi and emotional drainage. My 50 cents.
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#298091 - 11/09/06 07:55 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: justincase]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I personally think people think too much about specific PP energetic damage. Everyday of our lives we take whacks and knocks to our energetic systems. The way we live, the food we eat, the way we sit, the way we train, the way we love... everything is relevant. Anything done to excess will cause a problem energetically from a TCM point of view. Our training, aswell as our lives, needs balance. If this balance is lost then problems occur.

I said it before that I don't agree with knockouts in training. If the body was meant to be shut on and off it would have been equiped with an On/off switch. Both TCM and MWM practioners whole heartedly agree that being put unconcious unnaturally is a bad thing. No ifs, or buts about that. I've also stated in the thread about my opinon of most of the PP demo's I've seen. People are being put under in completely unrealistic conditions, so what are they proving by knocking each other out? It's a party trick at best and an excercise that may be causing long term damage at worst.

PP's done to excess will cause problems. Heavy sparring done to excess will cause problems. Sex done to excess will cause problems. Oxygen done to excess will cause problems. PP practice is made out to be the big bad wolf of the training world which is a total myth. Energetically we are doing far more damage to ourselves by the way we live our daily lives than we ever will poking a few PP's.

Makes me laugh that some will tell you how much damage you're doing to you're "energetics" at the same time as they smoke a blunt whilst knocking back a Bud and a big greasy Cheese burger... meanwhile at home their spouse is crying themselves to sleep and their children are growing up on a steady diet of neglect and negative emotions. Any damage that PP's will do to them energetically is like throwing bricks in the grand cayon!

As long as you are sensible and approach your training with a balanced mind you shouldn't go too far wrong!
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#298092 - 11/09/06 08:12 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
JoelM Offline
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LOL Tell us how you really feel, Gav.

I loved your post earlier in this thread talking about mindset an "Fight or Flight", excellent stuff.
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#298093 - 11/09/06 09:05 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
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I disagree about knock-outs. They are very definately a part of my training. Knock-outs are an advanced technique for self defense. When you see training clips of KOs done statically, that is a training stage. The goal is to do them in motion against real attacks or as good an attack as you can get in practice. Knock-outs are part of the arsenal. The standing KO is done occaisionally, lightly, under supervision and results in no permanent issues. Just like learning to defend against a knife attack is done in progessive stages, so too is learning to do a KO.

Bones and joints were not meant to be broken but I learn techniques to break them. The head and torso were not meant to be pummeled by hands and feet trained to deliver full power but I practice striking so that I can hit with quality if I have to. Muscles were not meant to be torn from the tendons but I practice seizing/grasping techniqes to help free myself should I need to.

In the grand scheme of things, a KO on pressure points that overloads the nervous system and shuts it down momentarily without the force of real head trauma/blunt trauma, is benign.

At work a couple of weeks ago, a coworker was attacked by two teenaged girls armed with a hairbrush. Their objective was to pummel her, knock her unconscious with blunt force tauma so that staff would be sufficiently tied up and another kid could attack and kill a nurse for her keys. No one died, but two staff were very badly injured. I have a bit of survivor guilt because I know that had I been there instead, the outcome would have been different. A KO, if I were lucky enough to pull it off, would have resulted in whole lots less damage to the kids than a joint break that a more traditionally trained martial artist may have done. A light touch KO would offer far less risk of litigation than breaking someone's bones.

I think the key is training and how you train. No one should be practicing KO without good instruction and supervision and no one should be training pressure points at all without learning revival/restoration techniques and good guidance. Sure a pressure point might just help you get a tuite technique on that was difficult before. At the other end, it could be lethal. Like most things in MARTIAL (military) arts, training and supervision are key.
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#298094 - 11/09/06 10:06 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
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Roseanne -

I generally agree with Gav on training KO's for most people, although I can understand your perspective. You are certainly in a position to really need to know how to work them realistically.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#298095 - 11/09/06 11:03 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: MattJ]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Sorry Gav I've got to take some of this credit also...People please remmber, gav would not have posted such a great post if I did not ask the right question. Thank you, thank you, no really no need for applause.

And you guys said this forum was dead....MUhahahahahaha

silly rabits
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298096 - 11/09/06 12:22 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
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I'll weigh in although I probably shouldn't (and I am sure that I have said this before)...

There are precious few combninations of things that will produce an actual knock out when dealing with PP's.

Even fewer that will produce a KO in a real combat situation.

but, there are points that work under duress and even work better when the person is switched into combat mode.

That being said...

Most of the things that you see in seminars and touted as being knock outs by Kyusho masters aren't.

Most of the information that is taught at seminars is very low level stuff and will not work when you need it to (unless you need it to work in a seminar )

Another set of the information taught in kyusho schools is just plain incorrect and will not produce the reactions seen.


Quote:

In the grand scheme of things, a KO on pressure points that overloads the nervous system and shuts it down momentarily without the force of real head trauma/blunt trauma, is benign.[




ephasis mine

I take extreme exception to this statement. Where is the evidence to suggest such a thing?

Is overloading a circuit breaker benign? or does it eventually become weak and fail more often?

Now there is not much danger from most of the techniques done in today's kyusho schools, because they have lost
much information. That being said macking on St-5,6 on a regular basis is not a good idea.

Gavin you make many excellent points, color me extra-impressed at how far you have come in such a short period of time.

In the end kyusho and pressure-points are much like religion you will beleive what you are taught until you test much of it for yourself
and then find the information lacking. Then you will begin to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A visit to the right Rev. Oyata can help speed you along your way.
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#298097 - 11/09/06 12:48 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
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Is someone keeping count on the many, many posts being typed on this dead forum?
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"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298098 - 11/09/06 01:45 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
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Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Fine. You must be right.
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#298099 - 11/09/06 02:14 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
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Quote:

Fine. You must be right.




Well, that was weird.

Which part of my post did you take exception to Rosanne?

If it is the benign portion I have two words for you. Ed Lake.

You may know him (though I know he is not KI, he is a hachi-dan with DKI), the effects of these KO's
are very evident in his case (he was George's top uke for years and years).


I will be glad to back up any of my statements with information.

I have been at this (tuite/kyusho) for almost a decade and a half and surely mean no insult its just that
what passes for kyusho and tuite today is not (at least for the most part).

Lets discuss.

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#298100 - 11/09/06 07:24 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
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I am familiar with most of the DKI greats. I've been to Deer Lake MATC and had worn out most of my Dillman tapes before I met Master Pantazi. I still order teaching materials from DKI folks when it is right. I do not know anything about Master Lake's current condition. So it's your turn. What happened to Ed Lake?
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#298101 - 11/09/06 07:34 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
kungfugerbil Offline
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kung fu has plenty of pressure points as well as most traditional arts like kenpo, karate, real judo/ jiu jitsu, aikido, kajukenbo, arnis/silat/kuntao etc..

pressure points like dim mak is very useful in countering various attacks including ground fighting for the JIU JITSU/WRESTLING only crowd especially those in the no holds bar sports.
I've used actual pressure points in self defense and in practice to get out of a hold or to remove an enemy from my presence. Pressure points is a much needed and completion of an effective fighting art, whatever it may be!

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#298102 - 11/10/06 05:09 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Tek wants to take credit for splitting the mod's up! Cool let 'im have it! Matt - I now see Tek as a totally disruptive influence, he pits members of our wonderful forum against each other and is obviously a troll (I put forward his statements wanting to take credit for the break in ranks as evidence!). I feel an immeadiate banning and execution via firing squad should appease this injustice. *Calling Tek, calling Tek... would you please report to the wall around the back of the building on the double please!*

Quote:

I disagree about knock-outs.




How dare ye! Why I've never been so insulted in all my life! Someone who doesn't take my word as the gospel truth! Ok gloves off, let's have it!

Quote:

When you see training clips of KOs done statically, that is a training stage. The goal is to do them in motion against real attacks or as good an attack as you can get in practice. Knock-outs are part of the arsenal. The standing KO is done occaisionally, lightly, under supervision and results in no permanent issues.




Fully accept that standing KO's are done as part of the learning process, but I question their relevance of their usefulness in actual combat. When the body moves into fight or flight there are physiological changes that I have already mentioned. From a TCM point of view if something changes physically there will also be an energetic change. The body chemical and energetic system completely changes as it adapts to protect itself from the threat. As such a KO utilising energetic principles against a static body which is not engaged in fight or flight will not respond the same way as does under fight or flight. The energetic balances of the body are shifted round to protect itself. Rand Cardwell made an interesting attempt to investigate the influences of the fight or flight response from a TCM point of view in his book "The Western Bubishi".

Also the physiological state of the person doing the knockout is completely wrong. In a standing relaxed state you are learning the techniques, cycles and theories into a part of the brain which is actually bypassed in combat. So even from an educational training point of view these exercises are not ingraining combat relevant skills into the body.

I've been made privvy to a few clips in the past of motion KO's and again these are not being trained realistically IMHO. Neither the attackers nor the defenders are ever in a state of "fight or flight". I've seen some very embrassing attempts of Uke's being told to "Fire themselves up" where by they slap themselves about the face and think "bad thoughts". This doesn't bring on a state of Fight or flight that matches anything real.

The only time I'd be impressed with a demo is when it's done against some who is gloved up trying to actually spark the PP attacker out using totally random untimed attacks. That would get a realistic level of adrenal response from person excuting the PP KO's. I would put money that 98%+ of their stuff will go out of the window.

I think Scott covered the point about overloading the circuit breaker, so I'll skip that one.

Quote:

Bones and joints were not meant to be broken but I learn techniques to break them. The head and torso were not meant to be pummeled by hands and feet trained to deliver full power but I practice striking so that I can hit with quality if I have to. Muscles were not meant to be torn from the tendons but I practice seizing/grasping techniqes to help free myself should I need to.




This is an interesting point. We do practice techniques that can break stuff, tear tendons and smash up joints. We practice techniques that will shatter bones and tear things out of their sockets... but we practice them to point just before causing damage. We exercise common sense because other wise there'd be a lot of crippled MA's. Why can't the same be done with KO's? I think that we're both agreed that artifically hyper-extending a limb outside of it's natural range of movements is a bad thing. I find it really hard to see why people think its OK to take a human being outside of its natural state of wakefulness. Seems a bit of a double standard to me?

Please don't take any of this to heart Roseanne... you know I have a great deal of respect for you. But they wanted discussion... let's give it to them!

Gav

PS. Scott - Thanks for the compliment, it was you who put me on the path my friend. Who'd have thunk a year ago I'd be doing Tai Chi! Also could you please comment more on the long term effects of PP practice from your experience and point of view!
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Gavin King
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#298103 - 11/10/06 09:03 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
TeK9 Offline
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Wait, huh, what? Gav I hope your joking the last thing I need is to be banned again and to resume the position of graveling for fogiveness.

I have nothing to do with mods being upset with each other, infact I rarely come onto this forum, i just posted a question as a favor to those folks who thought this forum was dead. I was only taking credit for helping revive this forum back to life. Sheesh

I spread good will, not ill will and the reason why I'm babbling now is because I don't know if your joking or not and I could possibly be banened and I would't even have the slightest idea why.

Incase your reading this Matt I have no idea what is going on, and I sware I did nothing to irritate anyone. Please don't ban me. One more time, please don't ban me. I promise never ever to come into this pp forum again. come to thnk of it has it been my 1 year aniversery yet?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#298104 - 11/10/06 09:05 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
When you practice joint locks, you stop when you feel the joint set, or when uke slaps out. You stop short of damage. This is the same as for any other category of practice. We practice with toy knives and guns or shock knives, or dulled trainer knives so that we can develop skills without injury. The same is also true of KO. When we practice KO, we shoot for a moment of dysfunction, not a total black-out. It isn't the same as a boxer, who, after a career of full contact strikes to the head acquires a dementia.

KO is actually a very small piece of the whole anyway. No one wants to get KO'd all the time, nor is it allowed.

There are enough war stories amongst practitioners who have used the KO in actual self defense to convince me that there is something to it. I am aware that if the defender chose instead to break a person's arm, that would be easier to believe, unless there was concern about energetics and maybe not really breaking the arm because of fight or flight response. That action causes more damage than a KO. Striking the head to knock someone out by blunt force causes far more harm than hitting the foramen in the skull, holes that are already there. Does your other self defense include striking to the head? Why not hit a PP at the correct angle and direction? If you are going to strike arms, legs, heads, body, head anyway, what do you have against hitting on points when it matters most?

One problem I am having is that no one has mentioned what harm the occaisional practice of light KO does. Therefore it is hard to come up with a rebuttal. That is why I'd really like to hear from Kempoman about Ed Lake. I want to know how he is, firstly because he is someone I respect and Kempoman knows something about him that would interest me.

Secondly, Ed Lake is being held up as an example of PP KO damage. I don't know the issue or what is attributable to PP practice and what to age, or genetics or other neurological process. Kempoman offered to supply information. Please give the information.

I don't even know which points are allegedly causing the problem. I know I don't strike vital points deliverately. There are a lot of points I would use in all out self defense that I would never strike in practice. I don't hit St 9. I don't hit the eye or groin or St 17. I don't hit yintang or taiyang. I think one thing that has happened to the evolution of modern pp practice is to make it less lethal and more self defense oriented.

That terribly forceful KO that evoked such horror from all of us that was posted recently, that is not how we practice. THAT was hermful. The whole scenario was bad.

Let's start with telling me what the concern in general is. What kind of practice are you worried about and what kind of damage and what happened to Ed Lake.

Who are you Kempoman? I seem to recall that Mark Kline knows you but I am not sure at all about that. It was an old conversation. From your profile, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do. Maybe I shouldn't be pursuing this at all.
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#298105 - 11/10/06 09:28 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
Gavin Offline
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Tek... me JOKE? Right your banned! That's it! Ya gone! Never darken our doors again you evil sinner! Where's my gun? Doh... forgot I live in the UK... we're not allowed guns! Well go and buy yourself one and do it for me!

Tek you've been here long enough to know that EVERYTHING I type is always slightly light hearted (usually totally!)... arh, you're sooooooooooooo sweet when you get all nervous and aplogetic!
_________________________
Gavin King
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#298106 - 11/10/06 11:19 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
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Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
See, now the forum is fun again! NOthing like a little discord to get the fires of conversation going again.

Quote:

I am familiar with most of the DKI greats. I've been to Deer Lake MATC and had worn out most of my Dillman tapes before I met Master Pantazi. I still order teaching materials from DKI folks when it is right. I do not know anything about Master Lake's current condition. So it's your turn. What happened to Ed Lake?




Quote:

Secondly, Ed Lake is being held up as an example of PP KO damage. I don't know the issue or what is attributable to PP practice and what to age, or genetics or other neurological process. Kempoman offered to supply information. Please give the information.




Quote:

Let's start with telling me what the concern in general is. What kind of practice are you worried about and what kind of damage and what happened to Ed Lake.





I'm not quite sure what you are asking for here


First of all let me say that Ed Lake is a great person, competent martial artist and my comments about him are not meant to be disparaging in the slightest.

Have you ever seen Ed get KO'd Rosanne? It is not pretty. The slightest touch puts him straight out and deeper than anyone I've ever seen. The damage was evident even over ten years ago.

In fact at one particular seminar in NJ George KO'd him using bladder points. It was indeed ugly. There were several complications during the revival. Ed's heart has stopped and he was not breathing. When finally revived his face and entire right side of his body was afflicted with what seemed to be Bell's palsey. The effects of this one KO tool over 1hr of work to set right.

Please tell me how this was benign. Heart stoppage is not benign. Neural paralysis is not benign.

Now granted Ed is perhaps the exception because he was George's personal uke for so long, but there are others who were there in the beginning who show the same symptoms (Rick Clark for one).

In addition there have been no long term studies on the effects of adding input into the nervous system like is done when attempting KO's.

Have you ever noticed that people tend to use the same uke's for the same KO's at seminars? They respond very well to the techniques, but when a KO is tried on someone new the effects are not quite as impressive.

Some have suggested (myself included) that it is some sort of suggestion/hypnosis that makes this so, but I also think that the nerves may become conditioned to respond in a particular manner or they may have been agitated enough that it doesn't take much to effect the shutdown. Is this damage? Could be.

Perhaps the damage is undone over time. I have seen evidence to suggest this.

I know that when I was playing KO-bitch in order to be able to learn I would go out like a light. Now, not so much. The last time George hit me, I just stood there and looked at him.


Quote:

I don't even know which points are allegedly causing the problem.




These are not points, they are connected neurological pathways which tend to overload a crainal nerve.

Quote:

I think one thing that has happened to the evolution of modern pp practice is to make it less lethal and more self defense oriented.




Yes, and it not effective and it is not tuite/kyusho jutsu. It is a new thing that uses acupuncture points in self-defense.

Real tuite/kyusho jutsu will hurt you...bad

Quote:

One problem I am having is that no one has mentioned what harm the occaisional practice of light KO does. Therefore it is hard to come up with a rebuttal.




If you follow the rules...no more than 15 mins per week, you are safe. However, even the 'masters' don't follow this rule and it is rarely occasional.


Quote:

There are enough war stories amongst practitioners who have used the KO in actual self defense to convince me that there is something to it. I am aware that if the defender chose instead to break a person's arm, that would be easier to believe, unless there was concern about energetics and maybe not really breaking the arm because of fight or flight response. That action causes more damage than a KO. Striking the head to knock someone out by blunt force causes far more harm than hitting the foramen in the skull, holes that are already there. Does your other self defense include striking to the head? Why not hit a PP at the correct angle and direction? If you are going to strike arms, legs, heads, body, head anyway, what do you have against hitting on points when it matters most?




Never said that tuite/kyusho jutsu doesn't work. Only that the clap-trap sold at the seminars and on video tapes by the new generation of 'masters' will get you hurt.

You only have access to gross motor movement in a real fight and energetics, polarity and where my foot is goes right out the window.


Quote:

I've been made privvy to a few clips in the past of motion KO's and again these are not being trained realistically IMHO. Neither the attackers nor the defenders are ever in a state of "fight or flight". I've seen some very embrassing attempts of Uke's being told to "Fire themselves up" where by they slap themselves about the face and think "bad thoughts". This doesn't bring on a state of Fight or flight that matches anything real.





While training with movement is better than training statically I have to agree with Gav here. You just can't get off the same techniques when the pucker factor is about 9.5.


Quote:

Who are you Kempoman? I seem to recall that Mark Kline knows you but I am not sure at all about that. It was an old conversation. From your profile, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do. Maybe I shouldn't be pursuing this at all.





Nobody really. I am an old friend of George and Kim and have been lucky to train with some very talented people over the years.


Rosanne please dont take these comments as a personal attack on you, the organization you belong to or any of your teachers.

Mark, Evan, Jim, Gary and everyone else from DKI that is now KI are great people and extremely talented.

I just take some exception to what is being taught and state for the record that something has changed and what is taught is not tuite/kyusho jutsu.


--KM
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#298107 - 11/10/06 02:17 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
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It is true that the study of modern Kyusho is changing and is not the killer Dim Mak of older military use. For many a modern "warrior" like me working in a hospital, or for policemen commissioned to serve and protect, and for personal self defense, this is often a good thing. Why knock it? Would it be better for us to practice killing people the way the ancients did?

If the problem is that Ed Lake goes out easily now, oh well, he isn't under 40 anymore, which is one of the rules. These things are individual. People get more vulnerable over time. So are his bones and joints and everything else. I'm not really sensative on head points. I've only gone down once. I get buzzed which in a fight means I wouldn't be able to fight back fast enough, but not out in the dramatic way people want to see on clips. I just get effected enough to loose a fight had it been real. That is good enough. Usually when we practice, this is all we need. It is a stage 1. Are you regarding THIS kind of practice as problematic.

We practice fewer knock-outs than we used to. My first KO seen by Master Pantazi was done very early in my training. It was in a class taught and supervised by him using class material from that class. I compare that to this past weekend in France. Last week, after several years study and preparing for entry level practioner/instructor level (which I hope I'll test for next year in Barcelona), I was the lowest ranked person to do a KO at the seminar. This is new. In the past, "demonstrations" would have gone on for ever as even middle ranked folks would get up and do their KOs.

In other areas of my martial arts, I have had a broken 5th rib, I've broken thumbs three times doing things like knife disarms. I've broken toes many times. Right now, I still have a healing finger fracture from tuite finger locks from July. None of these injuries were Kyusho related. This is MARTIAL ARTS. It isn't an Tupperware party.

Eventually all of us, probably me sooner than you, will need to decide that it is time to stop training the contact aspects of martial arts. The risks get too high. This is true of Kyusho and it is true of all the rest too. Maybe it is time for Ed Lake. There is no disgrace in getting older.

People respond similarly to KOs because of energetics not hypnosis, reflexes and other anatomical factors. This is true of other pain responses and many other responses that can be exploited. With practice and study, you can learn and anticipate what uke will present for the next attack because you know the cross extensor reflex etc. You know that Yang strikes produce one set of responses and Yin another. This is not new.
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#298108 - 11/13/06 08:47 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
justincase Offline
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Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 4
I would like to ask who made up the 15 minute rule a week of KO beeing OK. I still think that all KO or bad for your health.

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#298109 - 11/13/06 01:11 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: justincase]
underdog Offline
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To the best of my knowledge, it was Master Dillman. How he got it, I don't know.

I know that in KI, there has been some research with EEGs, VS and more, medical research. I am not qualified to speak about it so please don't ask. Doctors within the organization will have something to publish, I believe next year. I know that I was involved in data collection but I don't know what the bigger picture is. When the researched is published, I'll know and maybe post then.

One thing that is annoying is for people to say that there is or even is not, damage, with nothing but their "ought to be's" or other nonresearched based reasoning, to guide them.

I didn't realize, until this thread, that there were so many practitioners of kyusho, including my co-mod, who did not practice KO and who are against it. Now I know so I'm that much smarter. What of it? Everyone is entitled to his opinion and at this point, there isn't anything to argue about. It is part of the warp and whoof that makes this forum diverse and interesting. No winners. No loosers.

The grossest thing I have ever seen in a clip of someone's practice was a blood choke. I would never practice that way. OK so I saw the clip- I know what a person looks like in a blood choke- but it is way too dangerous for my approval. I am aware now that the KO evokes the same response from other people.

At one point in another thread, a horribly foreful and repeated KO occured. I thought the clip showed horrible abuse and I spoke out against it. I wanted to post a few of my own kinder gentler KOs to show how KO practice should be. There were instructors, approval for the moves, less force and so on. Fortunately, since it was a bad idea, I couldn't post them. Actually Gavin offered space on his sight for me to link to. So for now, If you don't think KO are safe to practice, don't practice them. If you do, find a good teaching situation and you'll probably want to keep quiet about it on FA because it is the minority practice.

If there are enough interested people, maybe we can post about what works and responses we get, but I don't see that there are enough interested people. I know that I intend to keep peace and keep my training to myself in this regard. I know that I don't want to be in a position of guaranteeing for anyone, particuarly an unsupervised beginner, that KO are safe. I'm not going there. All of martial arts practice is potentially dangerous. That is why they make you sign those little release forms when you sign up in a school.
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#298110 - 11/14/06 07:23 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
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Quote:


I didn't realize, until this thread, that there were so many practitioners of kyusho, including my co-mod, who did not practice KO and who are against it. Now I know so I'm that much smarter.




Firstly Roseanne I've never once stated anywhere or anytime that I practice Kyusho. The only formal training I've ever had in Kyusho has been on seminars. I study PP's as anatomical sign posts as to how to access the body. I don't honestly believe that TCM has any place in the realms of real combat accept as an intellectual sideline to gain a deeper understanding of the human body. I believe the study of biomechanics, the energetics of movement, the physiological and pyschological performance of the human body under stress and the way in which all of these topics interact with each other is where our attention should be. It is these topics that I believe should be the subject of advanced martial science. I'm affraid I think Kyusho (atleast as it's practiced today) is a modern invention. I don't think the kata's contain secret advanced TCM applications either. I think the Chin Na/tuite of old represents the highest possible level of practical PP applications as is possible under limitations of the human body once it slips into combat mode.

Quote:

One thing that is annoying is for people to say that there is or even is not, damage, with nothing but their "ought to be's" or other nonresearched based reasoning, to guide them.




This is simply not true. The foundations of TCM classics states that if there is an imbalance the body will be in a state of dis-ease. TCM is the foundation the knowledge that you use to apply these KO's. The language used to describe what you are doing is self evident also "overloading the persons neurological pathways". As Scott said earlier, overloading a circuit breaker weakens it. Every time a neuron is fired it'll experience wear and tear. To take it to a state of overload, common sense would dictate, it needs to be placed under stress. Increased stress means increased wear. I don't need a neurological study to figure that one out.

Also looking at it from a TCM point of view what about looking at the way the body addresses these energetic imbalances you are creating? How does the EV systems re-adress the balance? At an energetic level what effect are you having on the natural function of internal organs? Do you understand the underlying theory of impairing (even temporarily) the protective elements of Lung and Large Intestine? How do know what effects over stimulating the pericardium will have on a persons emotions?

I also still don't fully understand the point of applying a KO to some who is not in a natural state of combat readiness. Again looking at it from a TCM point of view (again using this theory as the underlying source for Kyusho information) the energetic system is completely altered as the body moves into a state of alarm. The parts of the defenders brain that take over are not capable of making the use of the techniques that are used in these demo's so what use are they? The only PP group I've seen that has publicly released information on dealing with adrenal response is the DSI and even their PP bunkai is totally unappliable under B.A.R. I've not seen anything from either KI or DKI that comes close to applying kyusho under an extreme adrenal response. Most of these so called advnaced martial science groups seem nothing more than martial theorists to me. Nothing wrong that, just leaves the rest of us to sift through the material and take out what's usuable.

Russell Stutely actually as an open, as of yet unanswered, challange to have any of these Kyusho masters apply a TCM KO when he is trying to really knock them out using a good old fashioned KO.

Dunno bit of I rant I know... but I find it annoying when those challanged on their opinion and practices result to the use of "non-arguments".
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#298111 - 11/14/06 12:05 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
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I will only add a little to what should be 'post of the year' from Gavin.

Quote:

I study PP's as anatomical sign posts as to how to access the body. I don't honestly believe that TCM has any place in the realms of real combat accept as an intellectual sideline to gain a deeper understanding of the human body.




I no longer study kyusho either. I did with the top people from DKI and DSI and came to the same conculsion as Gavin years ago. It is a fine intellectual pursuit and can drive you crazy.

Here is a snippit from an e-mail I sent Gavin sometime back...

Quote:

You are starting a very long and interesting journey, you will study theory until your eyes bleed. Memorize jing-point, mu-points, shu-points, meridians, vessels, cycles all to end back up at the place where you started.




The Point is that it is fine to study this theory and all of its interactions but what you should be gathering from it are principles.


Quote:

I believe the study of biomechanics, the energetics of movement, the physiological and pyschological performance of the human body under stress and the way in which all of these topics interact with each other is where our attention should be.




Without these things it is simply artsy-fartsy karate.

We all felt like we had found the holy-grail of martial arts when we were shown the effectiveness of pressure points.

When what we actually found was another piece of the puzzle to help us understand the above.



Quote:

I'm affraid I think Kyusho (at least as it's practiced today) is a modern invention. I don't think the kata's contain secret advanced TCM applications either. I think the Chin Na/tuite of old represents the highest possible level of practical PP applications as is possible under limitations of the human body once it slips into combat mode.




Yes, and actual tuite is based on gross motor movement. Please reference taikyoku-sho. It is the simplest kata that is taught, but the contains the most effective tuite in the bunch.

I will give you that in a controlled situation hitting, rubbing, pressing points A,B,C following any one of the three TCM cycles can produce anything from a light daze to a momentary loss of conciousness.

That being said, once the adrenal-response has been activated these staged (whether static or moving) KOs WILL NOT WORK.

There are a few techniques that will work once the body's alarm reaction has been activated but they are based on the flinch response and are very gross motor movements.



Quote:

This is simply not true. The foundations of TCM classics states that if there is an imbalance the body will be in a state of dis-ease. TCM is the foundation the knowledge that you use to apply these KO's. The language used to describe what you are doing is self evident also "overloading the persons neurological pathways". As Scott said earlier, overloading a circuit breaker weakens it. Every time a neuron is fired it'll experience wear and tear. To take it to a state of overload, common sense would dictate, it needs to be placed under stress. Increased stress means increased wear. I don't need a neurological study to figure that one out.

Also looking at it from a TCM point of view what about looking at the way the body addresses these energetic imbalances you are creating? How does the EV systems re-adress the balance? At an energetic level what effect are you having on the natural function of internal organs? Do you understand the underlying theory of impairing (even temporarily) the protective elements of Lung and Large Intestine? How do know what effects over stimulating the pericardium will have on a persons emotions?




Exactly, please read Hara Diagnosis: Relfections on the Sea and Extraordinary Vessels by Kiiko Matsumoto for a better understanding about what Gavin is talking about.


Quote:

Russell Stutely actually as an open, as of yet unanswered, challange to have any of these Kyusho masters apply a TCM KO when he is trying to really knock them out using a good old fashioned KO.




One that I expect will remain unanswered. It is one thing to be able to apply these techniques to the drunk at the bar, the irate customer in a resturant or some loud-mouth redneck at the church picnic quite another to even execute them against a fully resistive opponent hell bent on smashing in your nut.
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#298112 - 11/14/06 12:49 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm not an arguement person. I don't know how I got involved in defending KO practice. I am truly sorry. I now know that this is not the right forum for that.

I spend very little time with KOs. All my Training yesterday was on kata and weapons defense. It was a typical day. No KOs. I taught two special needs classes and we never mention KO. My training is pretty well rounded.

I'm not attacking anyone else's training. I am sorry if someone thought I was attacking them. I don't even care that much how other people train. I just mind my own training. On the forum I expect to exchange ideas and experiences. That has been done pages ago on this thread.

I respect Gav and Scott for what they know and contribute. I still respect them. I expect the same. In my own posts, I try to respect every person who posts. I don't know what I did to deserve less. I don't log on to FA to be abused, backed into a corner or made to be defensive about my training by a co-mod and former mod, 2 against one, each of whom have more experience than I have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have expressed mine and the two of you have expressed yours.

I have read your opinions and find much for agreement and some disagreement and I'm OK with leaving it at that.
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#298113 - 11/14/06 01:28 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
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Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Whoa hold on there a minute Tex.

Quote:


I'm not attacking anyone else's training. I am sorry if someone thought I was attacking them. I don't even care that much how other people train. I just mind my own training. On the forum I expect to exchange ideas and experiences. That has been done pages ago on this thread.

I respect Gav and Scott for what they know and contribute. I still respect them. I expect the same. In my own posts, I try to respect every person who posts. I don't know what I did to deserve less. I don't log on to FA to be abused, backed into a corner or made to be defensive about my training by a co-mod and former mod, 2 against one, each of whom have more experience than I have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have expressed mine and the two of you have expressed yours.




I for one was not attacking you or your training, I am very sorry for it coming across like that.

KO's are what people on the outside know organizations like DKI,KI and DSI for. It most likely comes from back in the day when in DKI you had to come up with three new KO's that noone had seen before and perform them in front of George to get your next dan grade.

This led to a lot of time at seminars being dedicated to KO's and before you know it the whole thing became a tradition at the end of a seminar. I've performed my share of KO's (100's) because thats what people wanted to see. I leanred more and thought better of it and don't do them anymore (unless it is on accident).


Again I apologize to you Rosanne for making you feel uncomfortable.

You are headed down a good path with good people...keep going. I would urge you to take a look at the information on Body Alarm Reaction. I think you will find it helpful in picking which techniques to go with.

Cheers,
Scott
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Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#298114 - 12/24/06 12:59 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Kempoman]
Wushaw Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 3
Loc: Baytown, TX
I know this is an old thread, but I was just kinda jumping around, and read your post about KO's not working when the body starts to charge up on adrenaline. I had an argument with a buddy of mine, more of an aquaintence, anyway we both trained in Juko Ryu Jujutsu for a few years, and 3 of our guys went to a Dillman seminar, and came back all geeked up that they couldn't get knocked out by pressure points, they all admited that they felt something, but never lost there balance, or staggered once. they kept saying it was mainly because of the fact we take so many Ki shots to the body that our bodies and minds were conditioned to deflect the PP strikes, I argued that it was our bodies getting an adrenaline dump, that probably insulated our wiring against an attack in this manner... thanks for kind of resolving this in my eyes at least...
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#298115 - 01/28/07 02:56 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: TeK9]
nobull Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 11
Are you serious?
I understand human has that...
But if you are fighting with someone, How do you hit the point?
I'm not going to slowdown and before people hit my point, I will beat that person, you can use for people not moving..
I can agree with law enforcement tactics, but people fight face to face... I don't think so.. if that's truth, everyone
will training that skill..
Can you tell me how do they use that skill during fight?
I say again, I will move around and use step work..

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#298116 - 01/28/07 07:36 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: nobull]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
you practice through drills until you're sick. First you learn hitting points. When I don't have a person to practice with, I move around the Bob manikin and just attack head and torso points (because that is all he has). I adjust him to different heights and keep drilling. I'll use all my sinewali drills, imagine every kind of attack. I do not have to stop to think when someone swings at me, about what to hit. I go there automatically.

On the tuite, it is easier. I just relearn or update the way I do tuite to include the points that loosen the joints or cause more pain.

Occaisionally I need my PP fighting at work. I am not an LEO but I am a psychiatric nurse and there is always the possibility of being attacked by a patient, or needing to stop a fight, or more commonly, needing to take a patient under control who is cutting herself or punching a wall or overturning furniture in a rage. PP do help.

Your proposition question for application utility isn't really different from your own art done without attendance to PP. Don't you do drills? Did you practice punches and combinations thousands of times? Would you be able to throw a punch correctly if you had to (1) STOP (2) Think about relaxation (3) drive off the back leg (4) tighten at the end? I don't think so. It isn't really any different for PP.

You are welcome, of course, to not use them. You can swing away at places you know hurt and that will be effective anyway. Some of the places you aim for knowing they hurt, are pressure points. I could go for a pressure point almost every time now. I may not actually hit one because of movement, but I will get some. I hope I can land the one that will help me get away. A real fight is not fun and doesn't take place in a dojo world.
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#298117 - 01/29/07 07:32 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Underdog,
just because people don't belive in gravity, it doesn't mean they won't fall down. The pressure point work or don't work argument has been going on as long as I've been in martial arts... probably longer... and I've always found the ones I use work, and the schematic for knockouts is usually workable if you're doing kata correctly.

Whoever started teaching pressure points as a separate skill did all kempo and karate players a real disservice, because the skill and access to them is usually found in the kata as designed by the master technicians who developed it. Thinking you can just walk up and "hit a spot" and drop somebody is like any other stupid concept that people who know little of the background skills will come up with in combat arts.

Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM, for the novices) developed the "meridian system" to chart and define the body's energy system. The "pressure point phenomena" was developed as they found the effects of those hitting points and combinations of hitting points while actually treating patients... so the basis of hitting points IS found in TCM... but it isn't necessarily developed with the same definitions of point locations that are used for hitting points. Where "needle points" are very small and precise, the hitting points tsubos are about the size of a quarter, and generally located almost directly on top of the needling points in most cases (but not all).

Where needling is a method of introducing conductance or shorting out an electrical signal in the nervous system, the hitting points phenomena works almost totally off the autonomic nervous system, or the primary nerve bundle locations.

If you try to learn them from TCM, you will go crazy. If you learn them from kata, they will work fine for the applications of the kata and in self defense situations... and are not necessarily all directed at knocking someone out. Just as you, yourself,Underdog, use them as "motivators", they are often designed to disarm or disable someone from using a limb or from being able to respond to a trauma situation at the tsubo.

What is seldom taught or studied are the long term effects of hitting points on the body of the uke, and they are serious if repeated attacks to particular points in the body are used as targets. One observable phenomena is when there are constant attacks to the lung meridian points in the arms and wrist. The long term effect there is the development of asthma or breathing problems with fluid accumulations in the lungs.

Modern Western medicine has many treatments that shortcut those effects today, but if you go back to the time when all the science of hitting points was developed, the TCM treatments were the only available pathways to return someone to good health... which is why Dim Mak or "poison hand" developed such a reputation.

While there have been endless arguments both here and other places about whether or not you have to kill someone to train in Dim Mak, I would ask someone if they have to shoot someone with a pistol to know that it's dangerous? The idea that it only works if you produce a dead body is like those people who don't believe in gravity... until they fall down with some force.

In doing Aikido, people seldom realize how hard they actually throw themselves until they meet the mats for the first time (of being thrown hard). It's at that point that the "lights come on" and their path becomes "redirection".

Fighting against pressure points is kind of like being seasick... the first five minutes, you think you're going to die... the last five, you're afraid you won't...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#298118 - 01/31/07 02:52 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: wristtwister]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Why dont these things work on everyone? Why are some highly susceptible while others virtually immune? What happens when you meet that person that it doesnt work on? Also, dont many of these types of applications require hitting more than one point?
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#298119 - 01/31/07 09:38 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Chen Zen]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
There are probably many different reasons why some people are nonresponders. I don't think anyone is a nonresponder to all points in all applications. I seem to be a nonresponder to head strikes. I think I know why.

In my case, I think I am a nonresponder to head points because the people who think they can KO me really have a hard time psychologically to hitting me with intention. My coach can and he has come the closest. I went down once and came up seeing double for about 15 seconds. So reason #1 would be skill of the attacker and intent.

Second would be that people who don't respond to one point are more likely to respond to the next point down the (meridian) line. That is what Dillman says. I have no research to back that up.

The next reason would be that some people are more tolerant to the dizziness or resist going down for a "stage 1" or "stage 2" KO. You might need to put them "out" as in a stage 3. We don't practice that way. At least most of us don't. It is safer to just go ahead and let that person be a nonresponder.

Next there are anatomical differences such as the size of a foramen. These are holes in bone through which nerves and blood vessels emerge. A large foramen is easier to hit and would have a better effect. Other important differences might be the length of a ligament or how "cut" a person is since nerves and blood vessels can be found in the cracks between muscles.

Another problem is the skill and knowledge level of the attacker. Some points set up others. Fortunately, the body often moves in a way so that it tells you where to hit next. Opposite quadrants is a good way to go. There are other clues and guidelines.

Now this covers the "striking" applications. Remember that we also use points for grappling and tuite applications and take downs and so on. I think most of the time when people talk about nonresponders, they are talking about "striking". I know that as a "nonresponder", I surprise some people with my ability to resist the pain and the action of having my head turned via SJ 17, as an example, and there are others. Here the problem is that I have all my energy invested in resisting. I respond much better with a set up that takes my energy away from the particular point.

So yes, there are nonresponder situations for a variety of valid reasons. But then, OK move on. Do all your leg sweeps work? Do all your tuite work? Do you know someone with an iron wrist that just can not be manipulated? Is there someone you can't choke out?

No specialized type of offense is going to work in all cases. That is why we train a more complete martial art. For me, pressure points is PART of what I do. My Dan rank certificates do not say "Kyusho".

For me, I can learn something that I can use and want in anybodies dojo. I also believe that if you came to my dojo on Kyusho day, you could learn something that would improve what you do too.
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#298120 - 01/31/07 06:23 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Chen Zen]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Pressure Points should not be the technique you rely on to defend yourself. But the cherry on top of a technique that you have pressure tested to cover the type of attack in question.

Many times people learn striking on points in isolation and think thats it?

Yes sometimes that first hit may finish the encounter. But you must have the ability to flow onto the next defensive move until you can back off or get out of the situation.

On the TCM and cycle points theory, I don't have faith in it as you can pick any combination of points and work out a cycle to follow them. So infact this means that the whole practice of TCM cycles are a waist of time?

Don't take this as an attack on how someone trains pp's. But this is just MHO.

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#298121 - 02/01/07 04:39 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Paulol]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Is it so important to learn "How" to strike the point as oppossed to where the point is? What I mean is, Im already a proficient striker. Would it serve to simply learn the location of the points and there applications or would you recommend learning the process over?
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298122 - 02/01/07 05:01 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Chen Zen]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Points have angles and directions and applications. If you hit, you know how to hit. You may choose to hit with a fist or a knuckle or rub a point or rake down a point depending on what you want. You don't need to learn the process all over. You just need to learn what to do with pressure points.

There is debate over which is better- getting the kyusho right from the beginning or getting it after being a black belt. I had no choice. I had to wait until I passed my black belt class. I have mixed feelings about starting sooner. The advantage of being a black belt first is that you already know how to hit and you have control.

The other things about pressure points aside from angle direction and how to attack them, is what they will do and follow-ups. I suggest going to class. At my school, for example, we have a Kyusho class every Sunday morning for 2 hours and then 4 nights a week, there is a Kyusho 1/2 hr after the regular adult class.

You would be limited, and dangerous in your practice if you just took your black belt skills and a point chart and started trying to self instruct.
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#298123 - 02/01/07 05:35 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Limited yet dangerous. I understand the limitations of self teaching of course. Obviously I would need instruction in their application and follow ups as far as PP wise. However, you did say dangerous, and isnt that the goal? I would say that it would have to be, if it was done in a combat context.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#298124 - 02/01/07 07:41 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Chen Zen]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Oh I don't mind dangerous when you WANT to be and NEED to be... That is after all, the reason some of us study martial arts. I mean dangerous with your practice partner. Even to KO a practice partner deliberately, which is something we do, could leave the practice partner with nausea and headache for the rest of the day. Not a good thing.
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#298125 - 02/01/07 07:49 PM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: underdog]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

.
Occaisionally I need my PP fighting at work. I am not an LEO but I am a psychiatric nurse and there is always the possibility of being attacked by a patient, or needing to stop a fight, or more commonly, needing to take a patient under control who is cutting herself or punching a wall or overturning furniture in a rage. PP do help.





Roseanne,

In as much as you said "there is always the possibility of being attacked by a patient". That I can understand in a SD situation, but I fail to see how your study of PP techniques would be of benefit to a patient who was "cutting themselves or punching a wall"? Similarly with the patient "who is throwing furniture about"?

In the first two examples they are only hurting themselves and as such would probably be no danger to anyone else. So you then going in and creating even more pain for the poor sods would seem to be only adding to their sense of pleasure or excitement. If that is the intent then you would most likely be more effective with a Bull Whip, if no-one else is endangered why intervene at all?

In the third instance of "throwing furniture about", they would at a guess eventually get bored with doing so and stop of their own accord eventually, without any external assistance from a staff member. If as I suspect, the reason for you and your colleagues to become involved is to maintain or regain control, then surely that is not treatment per say. Given that control is the objective and not treatment, wouldn't the old 'lunatic asylum' method of 'keeping them doped up' be just as effective?

I very much doubt that the general public would be best pleased to find out that nursing staff (which on this side of the pond are paid out of the public purse) were attacking their patients in order to maintain control, instead of treating those patients.

I'm not in any way being obstreperous in saying this, but an explanation would be most appreciated.

MC.
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#298126 - 02/02/07 07:56 AM Re: This forum is dead. [Re: Midnightcrawler]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Because this is a public attack, I kind of need to defend myself publicly. If you have further reply, take it to private mail. I have never harmed a person with pressure point control methods. I have used control techniques to take a person from a situation where they were at high risk of actual or immenent risk, to a position of safety. When the furtniture was being thrown, my co-worker was barricaided against a wall with sharp edges of furnitures all around him and he couldn't get out without the assistance of another person. He got one side and I got the other so that we could navigate to safety. The patient had NO injuries, and neither did my coworker. I take that back. The patient had blood on the wall- hers- and we stopped the self injury. While I have never inflicted an injury on a patient, I have 2 weeks of light duty still ahead of me because on New Years' Eve, my nose was broken by a patient who was trying to kill me. I was fighting like a health care worker, doing everything I could to take control without causing injury. The patient was seen by a doctor immediately after the episode. There was no injury. I had to wait hours for relief before I could see a doctor. You jump to conclusions and make accusations without knowing about my work situation, or about the gamut of uses for pressure points in the less lethal end of the spectrum.

For this and other reasons, I am locking this thread. This forum is dead has stretched into 6 pages. It has strayed over many topics. Its title gives no clue to what is covered. Discussions would better be opened as new topics. The thread serves no current purpose. I'll take your rebuttal in PM.
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