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#297508 - 10/28/06 04:11 PM Any Aikijujutsu stylist here?
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Aikijutsu and Jiu Jutsu were the original unarmed combat systems of the Samurai, and are the two of the oldest unarmed combat systems in Japan. Aikijutsu (or Aikijujutsu) is best known as the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II.

I don't dare wish to discuss the pros/cons of Akido v. Aikijutsu. I have very little knowledge of either since my MA experience is Uechi-Ryu Karate, and little bit of Southern Tiger Kung Fu, TKD, and Judo many years ago.

I had my first class at NorthWest Defensive Arts, which actually offers instruction in Aikido & Aikijutsu, as well as Jiu Jutsu, Kobujutsu (weapons arts) and Taihojutsu (arresting arts). This Dojo was founded in 1977. I like their philosophy of the practical application of martial arts and that they emphasize the combat aspects of martial arts.

NWD Arts is affiliated with the Washington Budokan [Sensei Bernie Lau - Icho Ryu Aikijutsu (Police style Aikido)] and the Tacoma Aiki Dojo [Sensei Fujiko Gardner (Aikido)]. However, it is an independent Dojo with no political affiliation or requirement. It is not uncommon for instructors from disciplines other than Aikido/Aikijutsu/Jiujitsu to teach on occasion. The Head Instructor, Sensei Wayne L. Brannon (5th Dan Jiujitsu - 5th Dan Aikido/Aikijutsu) has 30 years of training and experience.

I noticed the NWD Arts Dojo seems to lean more towards Aikijujutsu. So, I'd just would like some input from those that have studied Aikijujutsu.

TIA!

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#297509 - 10/30/06 12:37 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: SouthernTiger]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Strongly recommend you go to the Daito Ryu forum about your school.

I have never heard of Ichu Ryu as a authentic sytle of Aikijujutsu.
People on the Daito forum will be able to help you out more though.

You need to be careful when studying Aikijujutsu. Many teachers are simply Aikido senseis with some Ju Jutsu experience behind them. They mesh the two together and call it AikiJujutsu.

Something worth bearing in mind too is that Aikijujutsu is one of the most rigourously regulated arts in the world. According to E-Budo, outside of Japan there are only around 50 teachers of actual Aikijutsu IN THE WHOLE WORLD !

Check with the folks on the Daito Website, you will get a better response there.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#297510 - 10/31/06 08:33 AM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: Prizewriter]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Strongly recommend you go to the Daito Ryu forum about your school.

I have never heard of Ichu Ryu as a authentic sytle of Aikijujutsu.
People on the Daito forum will be able to help you out more though.

You need to be careful when studying Aikijujutsu. Many teachers are simply Aikido senseis with some Ju Jutsu experience behind them. They mesh the two together and call it AikiJujutsu.

Something worth bearing in mind too is that Aikijujutsu is one of the most rigourously regulated arts in the world. According to E-Budo, outside of Japan there are only around 50 teachers of actual Aikijutsu IN THE WHOLE WORLD !

Check with the folks on the Daito Website, you will get a better response there.



Thanks for your reply. However, I will ask my instructor about this Daito Ryu. BTW, are you saying you have never heard of Bernie Lau?

I find it odd that Akijujutsu is not considered in the Akido forum. After all, Aikijujutsu is the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II.
_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#297511 - 10/31/06 02:47 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: SouthernTiger]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I haven't heard too much about him to be honest, but I did take the time to read his bio (in which it specifically mentions Don Agnier, his AikiJujutsu teacher, having studied Daito Ryu).

Daito Ryu AikiJujusu is AikiJuJutsu. They have a seperate forum for it here as Daito Ryu influenced other arts too (such as Hapkido), not just Aikido.

What you refer to as AikiJutsu is correctly called Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daito_ryu

Again, would sincerely urge you to post on the Daito Ryu forum, as it is where the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu san's and sensei's talk about the art, and they will be able to keep you right about your sensei's teachings. As I said before, very few people are allowed to teach Daito Ryu (aikijujutsu). Not saying that your teacher isn't one of those people, but there is nothing on the website, or Mr Lau's bio to indicate that he is a Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu teacher (only that he learnt a little Daito Ryu from Don Agnier.)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#297512 - 10/31/06 07:33 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neil Yamamoto Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 3
Loc: Seattle, WA, USA
To put an end to a discussion and to make corrections about Bernie or his connection to Daito Ryu, here is an old post of mine from E-Budo on the topic.

Iím tied to Bernie Lauís Icho Ryu as most people know. Bernie named his stuff Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu.
Why? Because given the time period, and his efforts to try and develop something that would not just be branded as more aikido, using aikijujutsu made sense. The techniques were more akin to jujutsu, but there were elements of aiki as Bernie understood it in the curriculum. Bernieís idea of aiki never fit in with most aikido so with the definitions of the distinctions between ĎJutsuí and ĎDoí that Bernie used, it just fell into place to use aikijujutsu.

There is no tie to DRAJJ or other Japanese schools of AJJ except for Bernie communicating with Takeda Tokimune, a few visitors from Japan who were DRAJJ students, but nothing more than that. Now one of Bernieís less bright students went about telling every one that there were ties to DRAJJ to try and make himself look good, but it just ainít true. So, itís a modern art derived from a Japanese art, created by a French guy, who was adopted by a Chinese family, and who was raised in Hawaii. Real good basis for traditional.

Now how does that impact the little Icho group? Good question. I have long considered what I do as something that doesnít fit any precise labeling attempt. Iím sure not an aikidoka, (despite Chris Moses deciding to call what we practice at the Bad budo club- ďYamamoto-ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu) but Iím also influenced by AJJ from Yanagi Ryu courtesy of Don Angier helping me to clarify what I do. I donít claim to teach Yanagi Ryu, so no smart !!! comments and no contacting me about learning Yanagi Ryu unless you want to be insulted for being stupid.

What Bernie did, and what Iím trying to do, and to my surprise have been somewhat successful at doing, is become what Iíve been called by some of my traditional martial arts peers ďA martial artist and teacher who respects tradition while avoiding ďblindersĒ in regards to it.Ē

Bernie has decided that he likes the idea of calling it Icho Ryu aikibudo more than any thing now. Fine with me, I donít really care what to call it despite my supposed to be running it. Though not a Japanese traditional art, Bernie kept some of the trappings of Japanese culture because, like another e-budoka says ďI like the Japanese thingy.Ē Cool! Isnít that why most of us are here?

No, Iím not really continuing a tradition, or even really trying to develop one. I've realized that will happen no matter what I want. All I'm trying to do is honor Bernie by making sure at least a few students learn well and learn to teach well.

Iím not looking to spread the word of Icho with more students personally, except I could use 2 or 3 more to help pay the rent. Iíll even admit to doing what I can to avoid contact by having little tolerance for most people unless referred to me by someone I know well and respect. That has earned me what one well-known aikidoka up here calls ďa bad attitudeĒ.

So, whether people want to call what I do JJ or AJJ, or even aikido doesnít really matter. What I intend to do is say I do jujutsu to people who ask cause itís easier. My girlfriend tells people I do aikido cause itís easier for her than to try and explain. Iíll continue to teach and learn with the losers, er I mean, people I like enough to want to train with as friends and students, and not worry about how Iím labeled. Yes, Iíve got a bad attitude as the obi I have with ďKi is crapĒ and ď666Ē embroidered on it clearly shows.

So, if you are like me, and you fall into this Ďmodern,gendai,í or Ďtraditional,koryuí origins and authenticity discussion, just donít lie about the history of what you do, and be happy you have something you like doing, and work to be better at it.

Sorry no deep thoughts, but just my little point of view.
--
A few addendums to the above.
Prizewriter, Don Angier did not teach Bernie any Daito Ryu since he is not a practictioner of Daito Ryu. They are long time friends and Don helped Bernie to better understand what he was doing from his viewpoint of Yanagi Ryu.

Southern Tiger, I suggest you speak with Wayne and get your history research done prior to posting. Simply reading the article on EJMAS would have answered most of your misunderstanding.
_________________________
Neil Yamamoto Chief instructor Icho Ryu and TNBBC Head Fluffy Bunny.

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#297513 - 10/31/06 07:37 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: Neil Yamamoto]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thank you, Neil, for taking the time to post. Honestly, and clarity are always appreciated.

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#297514 - 11/01/06 12:33 AM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: Neil Yamamoto]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

To put an end to a discussion and to make corrections about Bernie or his connection to Daito Ryu, here is an old post of mine from E-Budo on the topic.

Iím tied to Bernie Lauís Icho Ryu as most people know. Bernie named his stuff Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu.
Why? Because given the time period, and his efforts to try and develop something that would not just be branded as more aikido, using aikijujutsu made sense. The techniques were more akin to jujutsu, but there were elements of aiki as Bernie understood it in the curriculum. Bernieís idea of aiki never fit in with most aikido so with the definitions of the distinctions between ĎJutsuí and ĎDoí that Bernie used, it just fell into place to use aikijujutsu.

There is no tie to DRAJJ or other Japanese schools of AJJ except for Bernie communicating with Takeda Tokimune, a few visitors from Japan who were DRAJJ students, but nothing more than that. Now one of Bernieís less bright students went about telling every one that there were ties to DRAJJ to try and make himself look good, but it just ainít true. So, itís a modern art derived from a Japanese art, created by a French guy, who was adopted by a Chinese family, and who was raised in Hawaii. Real good basis for traditional.

Now how does that impact the little Icho group? Good question. I have long considered what I do as something that doesnít fit any precise labeling attempt. Iím sure not an aikidoka, (despite Chris Moses deciding to call what we practice at the Bad budo club- ďYamamoto-ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu) but Iím also influenced by AJJ from Yanagi Ryu courtesy of Don Angier helping me to clarify what I do. I donít claim to teach Yanagi Ryu, so no smart !!! comments and no contacting me about learning Yanagi Ryu unless you want to be insulted for being stupid.

What Bernie did, and what Iím trying to do, and to my surprise have been somewhat successful at doing, is become what Iíve been called by some of my traditional martial arts peers ďA martial artist and teacher who respects tradition while avoiding ďblindersĒ in regards to it.Ē

Bernie has decided that he likes the idea of calling it Icho Ryu aikibudo more than any thing now. Fine with me, I donít really care what to call it despite my supposed to be running it. Though not a Japanese traditional art, Bernie kept some of the trappings of Japanese culture because, like another e-budoka says ďI like the Japanese thingy.Ē Cool! Isnít that why most of us are here?

No, Iím not really continuing a tradition, or even really trying to develop one. I've realized that will happen no matter what I want. All I'm trying to do is honor Bernie by making sure at least a few students learn well and learn to teach well.

Iím not looking to spread the word of Icho with more students personally, except I could use 2 or 3 more to help pay the rent. Iíll even admit to doing what I can to avoid contact by having little tolerance for most people unless referred to me by someone I know well and respect. That has earned me what one well-known aikidoka up here calls ďa bad attitudeĒ.

So, whether people want to call what I do JJ or AJJ, or even aikido doesnít really matter. What I intend to do is say I do jujutsu to people who ask cause itís easier. My girlfriend tells people I do aikido cause itís easier for her than to try and explain. Iíll continue to teach and learn with the losers, er I mean, people I like enough to want to train with as friends and students, and not worry about how Iím labeled. Yes, Iíve got a bad attitude as the obi I have with ďKi is crapĒ and ď666Ē embroidered on it clearly shows.

So, if you are like me, and you fall into this Ďmodern,gendai,í or Ďtraditional,koryuí origins and authenticity discussion, just donít lie about the history of what you do, and be happy you have something you like doing, and work to be better at it.

Sorry no deep thoughts, but just my little point of view.
--
A few addendums to the above.
Prizewriter, Don Angier did not teach Bernie any Daito Ryu since he is not a practictioner of Daito Ryu. They are long time friends and Don helped Bernie to better understand what he was doing from his viewpoint of Yanagi Ryu.

Southern Tiger, I suggest you speak with Wayne and get your history research done prior to posting. Simply reading the article on EJMAS would have answered most of your misunderstanding.



Neil,

I highly appreciate your in-depth reply. However, what was my misunderstanding? My original request was for input from other AJJ stylist. I never posted anything about Daito Ryu. However, any of my post that may have been inaccurate I sincerely apologize. I was merely going by what I've read on the NWD Arts website, as well as from conversations I've had with Wayne.

Why do you want to put an end to this discussion? It would be great to hear more about AJJ from you.

_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

Top
#297515 - 11/01/06 10:23 AM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: SouthernTiger]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Quote:



I highly appreciate your in-depth reply. However, what was my misunderstanding?





You seemed to infer that i) Aikijujutsu and Ju Jutsu were the oldest arts of Japan, and ii) this is what you studied.

The first one is up for some serious questioning. Records show warriors of Japan engaging in Sumai (sumo) long before Jujutsu is mentioned. It is hard to determine the original arts of the samuari.

Second, as Neil said, what Bernie does isn't Aikijujutsu in the traditional sense. You seem to indicate you study the art that the samauri studied. Judging by what Neil said, this isn't necessarily the case. You study a system that Bernie came up with based on his own training. But as Neil also said, that doesn't make it any less functional or valid. If you enjoy it, keep doing it.

P.S. Apologies about getting the Daito ryu/Don Agnier thing muddled. I admit I sped read his bio, so am sorry for the mistake.


Edited by Prizewriter (11/01/06 10:29 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#297516 - 11/01/06 12:19 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: Prizewriter]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I highly appreciate your in-depth reply. However, what was my misunderstanding?





You seemed to infer that i) Aikijujutsu and Ju Jutsu were the oldest arts of Japan, and ii) this is what you studied.

The first one is up for some serious questioning. Records show warriors of Japan engaging in Sumai (sumo) long before Jujutsu is mentioned. It is hard to determine the original arts of the samuari.

Second, as Neil said, what Bernie does isn't Aikijujutsu in the traditional sense. You seem to indicate you study the art that the samauri studied. Judging by what Neil said, this isn't necessarily the case. You study a system that Bernie came up with based on his own training. But as Neil also said, that doesn't make it any less functional or valid. If you enjoy it, keep doing it.

P.S. Apologies about getting the Daito ryu/Don Agnier thing muddled. I admit I sped read his bio, so am sorry for the mistake.



IMHO, you possibly sped read through all of my post on this thread I started. I never infered anything. A big difference exist between "two of the oldest" & "the two oldest". Plus, I did post it was my first class. Therefore, you incorrectly spoke in the past tense, "that is what you studied". Again, I never posted that I study, or intend to study, the specific art the Samurai studied. Also, Bernie Lau is not my instructor. Sensei Wayne Brannon is affiliated with Lau, yet is independent from him.

I never, ever intended to start some kind of historical debate or scream a declaration of supremacy here. I merely was hoping for some input from those that study Akijujutsu.

_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

Top
#297517 - 11/01/06 02:05 PM Re: Any Aikijujutsu stylist here? [Re: SouthernTiger]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I highly appreciate your in-depth reply. However, what was my misunderstanding?





Then why the pretext? Why the introduction to the "original" samuari arts?

You seemed to infer that i) Aikijujutsu and Ju Jutsu were the oldest arts of Japan, and ii) this is what you studied.

The first one is up for some serious questioning. Records show warriors of Japan engaging in Sumai (sumo) long before Jujutsu is mentioned. It is hard to determine the original arts of the samuari.

Second, as Neil said, what Bernie does isn't Aikijujutsu in the traditional sense. You seem to indicate you study the art that the samauri studied. Judging by what Neil said, this isn't necessarily the case. You study a system that Bernie came up with based on his own training. But as Neil also said, that doesn't make it any less functional or valid. If you enjoy it, keep doing it.

P.S. Apologies about getting the Daito ryu/Don Agnier thing muddled. I admit I sped read his bio, so am sorry for the mistake.



IMHO, you possibly sped read through all of my post on this thread I started. I never infered anything. A big difference exist between "two of the oldest" & "the two oldest". Plus, I did post it was my first class. Therefore, you incorrectly spoke in the past tense, "that is what you studied". Again, I never posted that I study, or intend to study, the specific art the Samurai studied. Also, Bernie Lau is not my instructor. Sensei Wayne Brannon is affiliated with Lau, yet is independent from him.

I never, ever intended to start some kind of historical debate or scream a declaration of supremacy here. I merely was hoping for some input from those that study Akijujutsu.






Then why the opening statement?

"Aikijutsu and Jiu Jutsu were the original unarmed combat systems of the Samurai, and are the two of the oldest unarmed combat systems in Japan"

"I had my first class at NorthWest Defensive Arts, which actually offers instruction in Aikido & Aikijutsu"

"I noticed the NWD Arts Dojo seems to lean more towards Aikijujutsu"

You started off by telling people on these forums what Aikijujutsu, as you understood it, was.

You then followed this on by saying you went to a class at a dojo that seemed to teach Aikijujutsu.

By inference, it could be construed that you believe yourself to be studying the art of the samuari as your opening paragraph established the initial rheme, then continued this thematical progression by linking the (art of the samuari) with your own physical context (dojo you study at teaches aikijujutsu, which, according to your opening paragraph, was the art of the samuari). Your Hyper theme, as with all monological texts, was established in the opening paragraph.

How is saying "this is what you studied" tensely incorrect? This is what you studied. You went to class in the past, you class has since been completed, you made no point of saying you were to return, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say "that is what you studied", because, well, that is what you studied.

You are perfectly correct however, in that you did not say "the oldest arts in Japan". However, you did say they were the "original" arts of the samuari. Hence my misunderstanding of what you meant. (even thought I wrongly said you referred to them as the oldest arts in Japan). Sorry about that.

You mentioned Bernie Lau, so it was more a response to his credentials, rather than your instructors. I honestly didn't want to investigate his credentials too, having already tried to find out about Bernie Lau and Don Agnier!

From what I have read and Neil's post, it seems that the Aikijujutsu taught the dojo you attended is not an out an out Aikijujutsu class. Rather, it seems to be a combination of Aikido and Ju Jutsu that the dojo you attended calls Aikijujutsu. If it combines Aikido and Jujutsu, then it seems a fine name.

As it was your first class (and possibly last, who knows!), and knowing that it is very very rare to find a fully qualified and authentic Aikijujutsu teacher, I was concerned that you may have entered a McDojo. Hence my initial request for you to post on the Daito Ryu website. It wasn't anything personal, its just that there are many tales of so called Aikijujutsu teachers who are fake. As Don Agnier said, they learn a bit of Aikido, some Judo, and lump it together and brand it Aikijujutsu.

If you want to have conversation with people who study Aikijujutsu, again, it would be a better topic for the Datio Ryu forum. Although you don't study Daito Ryu, what you have described is closer to Daito Ryu than Aikido, so you are less likely to get a response here.

Good luck and no hard feelings.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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