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#296874 - 10/26/06 02:49 PM How many actually practice Kata application?
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How many actually practice Kata Real application? Outside of its formal setting of Bunkia.

Doing kata so in a way you have two method of performing Kata. Instead of knowing and doing the technique the Kata proper way you actually do the hidden application and there by change it to more of a shadow boxing session with a Kata base. This not a debate about which application is right, being that its free form ,its what feels good and can b done instictively.

Having muscles memory if that exist comes from doing a certain move physically over and over not just thinking and knowing that its there. I personally don't like the term muscle memory, I like building instictive responce (its debated that muscles don't have memory, though it mean the same thing 2 me). IR is something you can take to the bank.

Kata is the base like ABCs that help form sentences or combinations and free thought responce. I'm not saying you can enter a cage match, with just this training, just apply what you are training to do.


Edited by Neko456 (10/26/06 02:52 PM)

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#296875 - 10/26/06 03:28 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Whose kata and which? If the answer is traditional kata.

Nope, isn't me. Don't even practice much of the kata that is within my system of study.

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#296876 - 10/26/06 03:31 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Do you practice kata application?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 10/26/06 03:31 PM
View the results of this poll.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#296877 - 10/26/06 04:04 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Another "muscle memory" term which may be a tiny bit more accurate is "conditioned reflex". Instinct is actually what organisms are born with: heights, snakes, spiders, etc. Reflexes can be learned or modified. So MA, to me, is a life long effort to condition in "good" reflexive behavior so that it occurs without thought.

Anyway, regarding your main question, the small group I train with sort of adhears to Iain Abernethy's concept that kata is mostly a one-person drill... whether you follow the accepted embusen, or adapt it to fit your bunkai. In saying "one-person", though, what it means is that, unless you are by yourself, you OUGHT to be working kata related two-person drills - NOT one-person kata.

Truthfully, I'm getting enough two person work to satisfy my "MA jones" right now. If I was not, though, I would absolutely include the more specific applications in the kata. Do it one way. Do it another. Do it a third way. To me, the kata is an application memory tool more than a literal, precise application map.

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#296878 - 10/26/06 04:08 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
I do. It is my belief that you should practice many different ways. Once you choose to take a kata sequence and use it for fighting, it often has to have slight modifications. I find it critical that these modified sequences be practiced extensively in the air.

You also need to practice with partners, especially for any grappling techniques, or takedown movements.

What many overlook is the benefit from practicing different kinds of resistance. Against a bag is really important. But also, you can use light weights in your hands. I also make use of a heavy bar to improve strength on a number of applicatons.

It is my view that if you restrict application work to pure kata and partner work, then you are missing key components of required training. If it is going to truly flow, and have power, then it has to be done repetitively, in the air, and against the bag.

-Kakushite

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#296879 - 10/26/06 05:45 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yep I practise applications, alot and against common methods of assault.

I do not however beleive in muscle memory once the skill is developed,

my example is that doing 10000 punches the same in a session is not as productive as doing 5 sets of 2000 puches, slightly different. (ie with a partner, on the maki, different footwork, different angles)

then resistance training and application/variations are the name of the game along with conditioning and pressure testing.

Its a package and if not trained as a package it falls over in reality, but not everyone wants or needs reality.

so there.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#296880 - 10/26/06 07:26 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

but not everyone wants or needs reality.






Well, if that isn't an honest statement, I don't know what is!

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#296881 - 10/26/06 07:58 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: butterfly]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
_________________________
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#296882 - 10/26/06 08:30 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I require my students to come up with applications for parts of Kata. The problem they seem to have is trying to make them elaborate when simple will work.

As for "muscle memory", it does not exist. I like the term "conditioned response" that was used. It is merely a reflex. Everyone has a reflex to everything, even if it is just throwing your hands up to protect your head. By practicing something, you program your pattern generators (located in the spinal cord and lower (primitive) brain to elicit that response. These pattern generators allow you to respond to "common" things without having to involve your brain. In fact, your brain isn't informed until after the response. Ever done something and had to think "what technique did I just do" after you did it?
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#296883 - 10/26/06 09:23 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I put "No" just to help balance out the reality of the poll.

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#296884 - 10/27/06 04:34 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL good work, I wish I had thought of that!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#296885 - 10/27/06 08:24 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"my example is that doing 10000 punches the same in a session is not as productive as doing 5 sets of 2000 puches, slightly different. (ie with a partner, on the maki, different footwork, different angles)."

I'm in complete agreement with you.

But where I become frustrated is in the impatient, "hurry up", feeling that is created by trying to absorb so MANY kata embusens, that no one spends the time required to actually gain the benefits the kata offer. To actually receive the beneficial, application reflexs, it takes a serious number of repetitions repeated over a similarly serious number of sessions.

But how many dojo's actually look at a single kata long enough, and deeply enough, to accomplish this? Often the students have not even SEEN all (most) of the applications... let alone actually begun to embed them... before going to the next kata. Then the next and the next.

Treating kata like this, it is easy to understand why many pass through karate, and on, to what they see as more "practical" arts.

Sorry about changing the subject.

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#296886 - 10/27/06 08:43 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Im of the opinion re kata that less is more use to a karateka personally.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#296887 - 10/27/06 12:14 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
After 29+ years of training I hardly think this is hurry up training. Its after having the techniques sink in doing it the proper way 10k times, you make the techniuque your own. You don't change the Kata you use the Kata interpeted techniques with emotion and self expression you make it come to life.

Your analogy of 10k punches is basic training without the self expression in movement, timing and distance it takes to make it effective. Its only talking about taking what was practice and using it not just doing the kata and knowing menatlly this what I'm doing its about taking it farther then just bunkia. This is how you learn to fight with the technique when it become not part of your kata but part of your personal system of defense sparring or self defense.

I'm not saying change what you do, I'm only asking if you ever explore past what your Sensei or Sifu gave you. Have you tried to make the system part of you, have you made the techniques you train with spontaneous.

I'm asking after doing the Kata 10k times what else can you do with it? Can you make it applicable and spontaneous and alive not stagnate. Does these technique belong to you or Goju, Shorin, Isshin, Uechi, Wing Chun or TKD whatever.

Now of course this training is not for Kyu level people, you need to have a base before you can explorer it. IMHO.

I think I'm as Trad as most people but application is not an H or + pattern/stagnate. You got to do more then think it to use it.


Edited by Neko456 (10/27/06 12:16 PM)
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#296888 - 10/27/06 01:24 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking now, but I'll take a couple of shots at it...

"I'm only asking if you ever explore past what your Sensei or Sifu gave you."

Yes, absolutely. And this is pursued with the goal of finding the hidden techniques inside the kata - beyond what I have been given - and practicing these techniques till they become spontaneous.

"I'm asking after doing the Kata 10k times what else can you do with it?"

Good question. I think that 10,000 solo repetitions of any kata, without giving any separate attention to 2-person timing and distance techniques embedded in the kata, would only make you very good at... DOING the kata. It would not make you good at USING the kata. If this what you meant, then I agree with: "This is how you learn to fight with the technique when it becomes not part of your kata but part of your personal system of defense sparring or self defense."

Inherent in all this is your statement: "You don't change the Kata you use the Kata interpeted techniques..."

I agree... BUT... this takes me to what I am beginning to believe is myth regarding today's kata. The mantra of kata-based MA programs is that kata are old, old recipes for extremely successful self defense techinques written by ancient masters. NEVER, NERVER, NEVER change the kata as this would render the recipe ineffective or incomplete.

Yet we need only look around us to see that there are countless DIFFERENT versions of every possible named kata, scattered throughout the MA world. For example, how many different versions of Seisan might there be? 20? 30? 40? And then, even WITHIN programs, kata are routinely changed by program leadership. Thus you may be using Dinky Dai RYU version 22.15. This makes it a bit difficult to seriously accept beig told that any modification is unacceptable. I still live by this rule.... but in view of what's actually out there, it seems pretty unrealistic.

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#296889 - 10/27/06 01:55 PM How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Neko456:

Unsure what you are asking....?

The muscle memory question is easily answered. Try fracturing a large bone and getting rod & pins to repair the fracture. The large muscles get cut (or at least reattached). No matter how much you want them to obey, they have lost their memory how to do the simplist action... they require retraining.

Kata are designed fundamentally for point blank application. Long ranged techniques, require a PHONE application, or an emailed response .

Jeff

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