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#296884 - 10/27/06 04:34 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL good work, I wish I had thought of that!
_________________________
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#296885 - 10/27/06 08:24 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"my example is that doing 10000 punches the same in a session is not as productive as doing 5 sets of 2000 puches, slightly different. (ie with a partner, on the maki, different footwork, different angles)."

I'm in complete agreement with you.

But where I become frustrated is in the impatient, "hurry up", feeling that is created by trying to absorb so MANY kata embusens, that no one spends the time required to actually gain the benefits the kata offer. To actually receive the beneficial, application reflexs, it takes a serious number of repetitions repeated over a similarly serious number of sessions.

But how many dojo's actually look at a single kata long enough, and deeply enough, to accomplish this? Often the students have not even SEEN all (most) of the applications... let alone actually begun to embed them... before going to the next kata. Then the next and the next.

Treating kata like this, it is easy to understand why many pass through karate, and on, to what they see as more "practical" arts.

Sorry about changing the subject.

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#296886 - 10/27/06 08:43 AM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Im of the opinion re kata that less is more use to a karateka personally.
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#296887 - 10/27/06 12:14 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
After 29+ years of training I hardly think this is hurry up training. Its after having the techniques sink in doing it the proper way 10k times, you make the techniuque your own. You don't change the Kata you use the Kata interpeted techniques with emotion and self expression you make it come to life.

Your analogy of 10k punches is basic training without the self expression in movement, timing and distance it takes to make it effective. Its only talking about taking what was practice and using it not just doing the kata and knowing menatlly this what I'm doing its about taking it farther then just bunkia. This is how you learn to fight with the technique when it become not part of your kata but part of your personal system of defense sparring or self defense.

I'm not saying change what you do, I'm only asking if you ever explore past what your Sensei or Sifu gave you. Have you tried to make the system part of you, have you made the techniques you train with spontaneous.

I'm asking after doing the Kata 10k times what else can you do with it? Can you make it applicable and spontaneous and alive not stagnate. Does these technique belong to you or Goju, Shorin, Isshin, Uechi, Wing Chun or TKD whatever.

Now of course this training is not for Kyu level people, you need to have a base before you can explorer it. IMHO.

I think I'm as Trad as most people but application is not an H or + pattern/stagnate. You got to do more then think it to use it.


Edited by Neko456 (10/27/06 12:16 PM)
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#296888 - 10/27/06 01:24 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking now, but I'll take a couple of shots at it...

"I'm only asking if you ever explore past what your Sensei or Sifu gave you."

Yes, absolutely. And this is pursued with the goal of finding the hidden techniques inside the kata - beyond what I have been given - and practicing these techniques till they become spontaneous.

"I'm asking after doing the Kata 10k times what else can you do with it?"

Good question. I think that 10,000 solo repetitions of any kata, without giving any separate attention to 2-person timing and distance techniques embedded in the kata, would only make you very good at... DOING the kata. It would not make you good at USING the kata. If this what you meant, then I agree with: "This is how you learn to fight with the technique when it becomes not part of your kata but part of your personal system of defense sparring or self defense."

Inherent in all this is your statement: "You don't change the Kata you use the Kata interpeted techniques..."

I agree... BUT... this takes me to what I am beginning to believe is myth regarding today's kata. The mantra of kata-based MA programs is that kata are old, old recipes for extremely successful self defense techinques written by ancient masters. NEVER, NERVER, NEVER change the kata as this would render the recipe ineffective or incomplete.

Yet we need only look around us to see that there are countless DIFFERENT versions of every possible named kata, scattered throughout the MA world. For example, how many different versions of Seisan might there be? 20? 30? 40? And then, even WITHIN programs, kata are routinely changed by program leadership. Thus you may be using Dinky Dai RYU version 22.15. This makes it a bit difficult to seriously accept beig told that any modification is unacceptable. I still live by this rule.... but in view of what's actually out there, it seems pretty unrealistic.

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#296889 - 10/27/06 01:55 PM How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Neko456:

Unsure what you are asking....?

The muscle memory question is easily answered. Try fracturing a large bone and getting rod & pins to repair the fracture. The large muscles get cut (or at least reattached). No matter how much you want them to obey, they have lost their memory how to do the simplist action... they require retraining.

Kata are designed fundamentally for point blank application. Long ranged techniques, require a PHONE application, or an emailed response .

Jeff

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