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#296874 - 10/26/06 02:49 PM How many actually practice Kata application?
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How many actually practice Kata Real application? Outside of its formal setting of Bunkia.

Doing kata so in a way you have two method of performing Kata. Instead of knowing and doing the technique the Kata proper way you actually do the hidden application and there by change it to more of a shadow boxing session with a Kata base. This not a debate about which application is right, being that its free form ,its what feels good and can b done instictively.

Having muscles memory if that exist comes from doing a certain move physically over and over not just thinking and knowing that its there. I personally don't like the term muscle memory, I like building instictive responce (its debated that muscles don't have memory, though it mean the same thing 2 me). IR is something you can take to the bank.

Kata is the base like ABCs that help form sentences or combinations and free thought responce. I'm not saying you can enter a cage match, with just this training, just apply what you are training to do.

Edited by Neko456 (10/26/06 02:52 PM)

#296875 - 10/26/06 03:28 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Whose kata and which? If the answer is traditional kata.

Nope, isn't me. Don't even practice much of the kata that is within my system of study.

#296876 - 10/26/06 03:31 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Do you practice kata application?
Only one choice allowed

Votes accepted starting: 10/26/06 03:31 PM
View the results of this poll.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#296877 - 10/26/06 04:04 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
Joss Offline

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Another "muscle memory" term which may be a tiny bit more accurate is "conditioned reflex". Instinct is actually what organisms are born with: heights, snakes, spiders, etc. Reflexes can be learned or modified. So MA, to me, is a life long effort to condition in "good" reflexive behavior so that it occurs without thought.

Anyway, regarding your main question, the small group I train with sort of adhears to Iain Abernethy's concept that kata is mostly a one-person drill... whether you follow the accepted embusen, or adapt it to fit your bunkai. In saying "one-person", though, what it means is that, unless you are by yourself, you OUGHT to be working kata related two-person drills - NOT one-person kata.

Truthfully, I'm getting enough two person work to satisfy my "MA jones" right now. If I was not, though, I would absolutely include the more specific applications in the kata. Do it one way. Do it another. Do it a third way. To me, the kata is an application memory tool more than a literal, precise application map.

#296878 - 10/26/06 04:08 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: Neko456]
kakushiite Offline

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
I do. It is my belief that you should practice many different ways. Once you choose to take a kata sequence and use it for fighting, it often has to have slight modifications. I find it critical that these modified sequences be practiced extensively in the air.

You also need to practice with partners, especially for any grappling techniques, or takedown movements.

What many overlook is the benefit from practicing different kinds of resistance. Against a bag is really important. But also, you can use light weights in your hands. I also make use of a heavy bar to improve strength on a number of applicatons.

It is my view that if you restrict application work to pure kata and partner work, then you are missing key components of required training. If it is going to truly flow, and have power, then it has to be done repetitively, in the air, and against the bag.


#296879 - 10/26/06 05:45 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yep I practise applications, alot and against common methods of assault.

I do not however beleive in muscle memory once the skill is developed,

my example is that doing 10000 punches the same in a session is not as productive as doing 5 sets of 2000 puches, slightly different. (ie with a partner, on the maki, different footwork, different angles)

then resistance training and application/variations are the name of the game along with conditioning and pressure testing.

Its a package and if not trained as a package it falls over in reality, but not everyone wants or needs reality.

so there.
Jim Neeter

#296880 - 10/26/06 07:26 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

but not everyone wants or needs reality.

Well, if that isn't an honest statement, I don't know what is!

#296881 - 10/26/06 07:58 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: butterfly]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Jim Neeter

#296882 - 10/26/06 08:30 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I require my students to come up with applications for parts of Kata. The problem they seem to have is trying to make them elaborate when simple will work.

As for "muscle memory", it does not exist. I like the term "conditioned response" that was used. It is merely a reflex. Everyone has a reflex to everything, even if it is just throwing your hands up to protect your head. By practicing something, you program your pattern generators (located in the spinal cord and lower (primitive) brain to elicit that response. These pattern generators allow you to respond to "common" things without having to involve your brain. In fact, your brain isn't informed until after the response. Ever done something and had to think "what technique did I just do" after you did it?
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo

#296883 - 10/26/06 09:23 PM Re: How many actually practice Kata application? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I put "No" just to help balance out the reality of the poll.

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