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#296487 - 01/03/07 10:16 AM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: Gavin]
bigbair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 11
Gavin I agree with you when you said "being pre-emptive doesn't mean that you have to punch, kick or elbow. Locking, holding and other subduing techniques".
You can take control of the situation by having a stance where your hands are up (and open) while you have one of your feet slightly behind the other (in a small sneaky kind of front stance) where the back foot is ready to deliver a quick but powerful front kick. While in this stance you can yell out something like I don't want any trouble so that everyone can hear. Now if the attack comes your hands are already up for a quick strike/front kick or parry/block followed by a strike. This is one way that I consider to be a hunter as well because you have covered your butt legally and physically. You have control of the situation from the start but the attacker thinks he is in control and commits to an attack and gets taken out.

but what about the situations where the guy squares up with you in a boxers kind of stance but not in range to do any harm. Now it is too late to deliver the first blow without the attacker "commiting". By commiting I mean stepping in your range or coming with an attack. His hands are up but the attacker is not in range so now you have a waiting game going on. What would be suggested in this case??? I think that this is when noticing little shoulder dips and subtle movements are nice to know because you will be able to determine the attack that is coming and react accordingly.

This is a very good post but everyone must keep in mind that everything is situational and sometimes when an incident happens you will not always be in control from the start and will have to find a way to swing control back in your favor.

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#296488 - 01/03/07 10:39 AM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: bigbair]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Bigbair,

People do get caught off guard, no matter how much training you do. However its your reaction to being off guard that counts. I work as a Doorman and have been not always been able to get in before someone has raised their arms and have even been caught off guard, but then I hunt harder. I stopped parrying and blocking. I now train smoothering, jamming and offsetting. Everything I do be it defensive or offensive is designed to break your structure and take your balance. Looking at from a reactive point of view, I'm attacked I hunt for my feet first and foremost. Getting my balance and structure becomes my soul mission in life. Once I have that I'll hunt for my opponents structure jamming (or wedging as my Tai Chi instructor calls it) with anything I can, head, shoulders, elbows, fists, knees, etc. The only thing I'm concerned about is positon and destroying my opponents. As soon as you start thinking like a victim you become one. That's the whole point behind the Hunters mindset, it is the mindset of the fighter. They always say a cornered animal is more dangerous... this is the mindset I use if I'm caught off gaurd.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#296489 - 01/03/07 11:17 AM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: Gavin]
bigbair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 11
Gavin, I agree with you. I don't know how tall or how much you weigh, but what about the 5 foot 5 inch 150 pound guy who is being bothered by a 6 foot 3 inch 250 pound guy. In this case the little guy wouldn't want to just go in and Jamm because of the other guys strength. This is when the little guy needs to "play" the victim and can get the balance advantage by use his small stature to get the big guy to commit or "over commit" to an attack. When this happens the little guy is actually in control (if trained) because he will be balanced and can use the bigger attackers momentum and lack of balance against him if he knows any throws or takedowns. This smaller person can also get in a good front kick to the groin or knee especially if the attacker underestimates the smaller person.

One question I have is when you go in to jam or wedge in has anyone tried to take your knees out or send a strike to your groin. I ask this just because when I read your response I immediatly thought about you jamming punches and not low kicks (I could be wrong but that is just where my mind went when picturing the situation). These are just my assumptions because I don't know your background or size or size of people you are getting rid of. like I said before everything is situational.
This is a good post that can go on and on. Because when I think of hunters mind set I think of just being in control. In control of my emotions, movements and the attackers movements. Ex. if they are in a strong stance and inching in then maybe I will move to the left or right so that I can get the edge in postioning and then begin my strikes while they are somewhat out of position. I believe that I am in control and hunting even if I am moving backwards. I keep my center of gravity and stances correct and move back on angles (not straight back) and make the attacker move the way I want them to which will benefit me during the situation and when there is an opening I take it. Whether it be knee strike groin strike, punch elbow or whatever.

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#296490 - 01/03/07 01:26 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: bigbair]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Because when I think of hunters mind set I think of just being in control. In control of my emotions, movements and the attackers movements. Ex. if they are in a strong stance and inching in then maybe I will move to the left or right so that I can get the edge in postioning and then begin my strikes while they are somewhat out of position. I believe that I am in control and hunting even if I am moving backwards. I keep my center of gravity and stances correct and move back on angles (not straight back) and make the attacker move the way I want them to which will benefit me during the situation and when there is an opening I take it. Whether it be knee strike groin strike, punch elbow or whatever.




This is exactly it! It's about taking control. I'm not a big guy 5'10 and about a 180lbs. My background is Kempo, although I'm mainly training in more of a combative manner and studying Tai Chi now. In Tai Chi the first thing we do is root, find our feet. Then once we have our own centre of gravity we a basis for a strong structure (this is the strong stance you mentioned!). In Tai Chi we find an opponents structure by yielding around our opponents force/power/energy/etc to get their centre. Many Tai Chi people mistake this yielding as a passive action and "over-yield" going all floppy and loosing their structure, root and power. Yielding is a very subtle and actually highly agressive action in my opinion. It's the old adage of "An ounce can move a ton if applied correctly!". This is why the Hunters mindset alone is not enough, it needs to be backed up with skill.

Regarding the larger against the smaller person. My Tai Chi instructor explains it as such, "A large persons bulk is an advantage when there are on balance and can use it. When there off balance it's a total disadvantage!". It's all a matter our responding skillfully with a Hunters mindset.

Think we're singing from the same hymn sheet here!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#296491 - 01/03/07 01:37 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: Gavin]
bigbair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 11
I agree we are on the same page. These are the nice, calm intelligent "conversations" that I like to see in forums. Thank you for this post!!!

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#296492 - 01/03/07 02:27 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: bigbair]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:

Gavin I agree with you when you said "being pre-emptive doesn't mean that you have to punch, kick or elbow. Locking, holding and other subduing techniques".




Trouble is, the jury probably won't agree with you. to the average jury (especially when helped along by the prosecutor) "big-bad-martial-arts-experts" are jedis. They watch Karate Kid and think they know about fighting. If you so much as TOUCH the other guy before he makes an obvious move (shoulder dips don't count since the witnesses won't pick up on them) you can plan on at best spending a night in jail and at worst getting sued out of everything you own.

Quote:

You can take control of the situation by having a stance where your hands are up (and open) while you have one of your feet slightly behind the other (in a small sneaky kind of front stance) where the back foot is ready to deliver a quick but powerful front kick.




I agree with you except for the front kick bit - - if you use the back leg use it in an oblique kick to the knee. It's faster, harder to stop, and the laws of physics say it will stop the guy's advance.

Quote:

While in this stance you can yell out something like I don't want any trouble so that everyone can hear.




Good advice.

Quote:

Now if the attack comes your hands are already up for a quick strike/front kick or parry/block followed by a strike.




There should be no such word as block in your martial arts vocabulary. If you're blocking, you're on the defensive. Parries and destructions should be your responses to strikes - after all, if you block, the other guy just has to hit you again and again and eventually something will connect. If you render the arm he's punching you with useless then he has a maximum of 2 strikes before he's out of fists.

Quote:

This is one way that I consider to be a hunter as well because you have covered your butt legally and physically.




Never EVER think you've covered your butt legally. You haven't. If you can get away with it, don't admit to ANY martial arts training, and make very sure it's bleedingly obvious that he attacked you. And even then you could still be screwed. Some years ago a cab driver in New York got sued because he pinned a jewelry store robber up against a wall until the cops got there. Another case had a burglar trying to sneak into a building via the roof access - - fell through a skylight, got hurt, sued, and won. The criminal justice system in the USA (and probably other western countries) is insane, and is often weighted toward the criminals. Unless you're a cop, you will almost certainly have legal troubles if you get into a fight.

Quote:

You have control of the situation from the start but the attacker thinks he is in control and commits to an attack and gets taken out.




If you have control of the situation then it goes the way you want it to. If it degenerates into a fight, you do not have control.


Quote:

but what about the situations where the guy squares up with you in a boxers kind of stance but not in range to do any harm. (snip) His hands are up but the attacker is not in range so now you have a waiting game going on. What would be suggested in this case???




I dunno about you, but I'm gonna run away as fast as I can. I'm not going to fight unless there's absolutely no alternative. I have nothing to prove, so I don't need to stay and fight the guy just to show that I'm macho or whatever the kids like to be these days


Edited by shadowkahn (01/03/07 02:30 PM)
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

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#296493 - 01/03/07 02:37 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: shadowkahn]
shaolinmonkuk Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 24
Hello, this is one of my favourite topics and keeping up to date with it.

I have a question and always curious though why this is:

If you study martial arts and you do get into a fight, meaning you have to defend yourself because someone is going to hurt your body or your wife/kids physically...then you should have a right to stop them/disarm them and perhaps knock them out.
Now in court, I don't understand why you shouldn't say you know martial arts if the judge asks you...because I was under the impression if you say that then the judge knows that since youre a trained martial arts expert you are wise, trained in defending yourself, trained in controlling your actions/emotions and obviously trained NOT to attack first/start fights first.
This is what I don't understand.
thank you.

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#296494 - 01/03/07 03:47 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: shadowkahn]
bigbair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 11
Shadowkahn you make some very good points. I just need to clear some things up. The way we Train a block is a strike. So with that said the attacker punches and we "block" which is immediatly followed by a strike. Our block is a full force say shuto, ridge hand, or cantoured wrist ....etc block, and we expect the attackers arm/hand to be of no good use after we hit it. We consider this to be an offensive move.

Also if it is a big looping punch that can be seen coming from a mile away we have the option of blending with it and taking the attacker down using their momentum

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#296495 - 01/03/07 03:52 PM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: shaolinmonkuk]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:

I don't understand why you shouldn't say you know martial arts if the judge asks you...because I was under the impression if you say that then the judge knows that since youre a trained martial arts expert you are wise, trained in defending yourself, trained in controlling your actions/emotions and obviously trained NOT to attack first/start fights first.




Because unless the judge has himself trained in martial arts, he's going to have the same preconceived notions that most of the public has about martial artists. Many of those notions come from watching the Cobra Kai scenes in Karate Kid.

Oftentimes the judge's first question will be "then why the hell didn't you just put him in an unescapable lock instead of punching him. You're trained, you shouldn't have to hurt him."

Obviously, WE all know that's a load of bunk, but unfortunately judges do not know everything about everything. Obviously if you are asked you must tell the truth because otherwise you are guilty of perjury, but if they don't bring it up, YOU shouldn't bring it up.
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

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#296496 - 02/28/07 06:51 AM Re: The Hunters Mindset [Re: Gavin]
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
" I stopped parrying and blocking."

Next you'll be saying that you have started doing Wado Gav.!
_________________________
Heijo Shin

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