gang

So instead of dealing with the reams of objections, counterpoints, and outright self negating contridictions YOU, YOURSELF have posted.

Such as the whole "you need to train in an art prior to offerering ctitisim--still waiting for your training in Uechi or sword BTW.

You instead wish to discuss a static picture.

Ok, fine--not any stonger there.

A-As Ed already pointed out--with MULTIPLE pictures, there are other much better explanations for the finger postion.

I have yet to see ANY photos of Uechi holding a sai.

Ed 100, gang 0--whuch one do YOU think I sould be beliving here.
The guy with NO proofs or the guy with A LOT of proof?

Why do I have to even ask that question.

2-Nope, your still wrong, sure you can argue that fingers are in position to do "X"
But since you already stated you have NO training in Uechi-ryu or kobudo---then there is NO reason to give your ideas any weight.

Plus the hand postions still don't add up--sai are not held like that--ther may be sections/times in which a sai might be in that position---but that is pretty much it.

In effect your argueing that because a sai CAN be held in that positon for a supposed "use" then they MUST HAVE BEEN USED FOR THAT.

Like I said, I CAN use my car to pull tree stumps.

By your post hoc rationalization, that means my car is REALLY a "stump pulling machine."

Brian,

Perhaps you could help the debate along a little.

We are talking a lot about tradition, who knew what, whether Nathan is right to question kata, whether Miyagi knew what he was teaching.
I also see that you teach groundfighting techniques.

So, can I just ask which of the TRADITIONAL Goju kata teaches such techniques?
Did Miyagi teach groundfighting? Is Sanchin the key? Or maybe Tensho?Would you agree that open-hand sanchin and seisan are not for sai?
In that case, do you teach seisan for groundfighting?

All of these kata teach the pupil to remain upright.

So, if we are ALL talking traditions and skill and experience, (not aimed at you, Brian) then I would like to know what Goju kata were intended for according to Miyagi or Higoanna and their pupils/ your instructors.

Thanks.

This is not a personal challenge, just a way to see how traditional the kata are in the USA etc. And why some of you guys think you are so right.

And I'm still waiting for the Uechi explanation from those who "know"..

Cheers.

gang

Again, if guys like Miyagi/Uechi DIDN'T "know what the were doing" then your OTHER arguement about what various kata/hand positons "mean" are now shot.

If they didn't know what they were doing then the hand postions mean squat.

Only if you "buy" that knew EXACTLT what the were doing can you even advance a arguemnt based upon "hand/finger" postions.

Problem is if you do that--then you have to deal with neither Miyagi/Uechi ever so much as suggesting the use of the sai in their kata.

Pick one.

Its a "circle jerk" of the worst kind.

Oh, people think that they are "right" because YOU have failed to prove YOUR claims.

Burden of proof is on the person makeing the claims--in this case you.

You fail to prove your case, which you have--then we are "right" by default.

I AM studying uechi sanchin; that's why we are debating this.

And the fact that you are still holding the sai like a tennis racket or sword shows your lack of understanding of how to use them. Are you going to hammer in nails with them next, too?

Have you done kobudo? I obviously haven't done as much as you, I guess, but only a fool thinks the sai can be held only one way. Or are you still throwing them at people?
The pommel is used for punishing, whilst the inner prong is used for catching a pole or sword; the sai-man then twists the foil to temporarily lock the pole/sword as he strikes with the pommel of the other sai. This is not Elektra the film and we are not cutting with sai.

Section one teaches that in open-hand sanchin.
One hand at 45° to intercept the opponent's weapon and lock it in the foil. The other hand retracts in an arc, the prong is flipped towards the chest so that the foil is ourpointing and the hand strikes back and hits the limb of the opponent.
And yes, the opponent does remain "trapped" because the choice of his weapon (pole or heavy sword) means that he needs both hands to wield it.

So the sai-man traps the weapon, and punishes the second hand disarming the opponent or at least one hand.
Now try to wield a bo with one hand. Or even a heavy sword. And you have no space to retract for a strike as the distance has been closed.

This is not too tricky a concept, even for kobudo pros like you.

Perhaps you should buy a third sai in case you lose one as you throw it.

And funny that sai are NOT sold in packs of three.

Your third picture refers to section three of the kata at the end of sanchin.
But you tell me why the master is scrunching up his fingers; to lift pots a la Jackie Chan. Or to grab your throat and balls? Or is it a dim mak?

Especially at that speed and intensity. Deadly.

LOL

Martin said he'd get some equipment to try.

At least the quote shows someone willing to try and experiment. Get a sai, a bo and the book, try the kata and see. Clever idea, shame not all of you are heeding this.

It's so much easier to just scream "no".

gang

Uh, your studying one kata and you think that qualiies you to speak with authority about an entire system?

Wow, check the hubris on you!

What Uechi group/teacher is teaching you the kata?

Then please please pretty please listen to folsk that DO and have trained with the weapons.

As people keep pointing out--lack of experience in kata/weapns is exactly why you guys are makeing serious errors in your reasoning.

But of course, since you guys are perfect and infallaible in your reasoning

There is no reason to listen to us

"Shame" on YOU for being so arrogent to refuse to consider other viewpoints.

"Shame" on YOU for presenting uninformed, spacious speculation as facts.

"Shame" on YOU for your dogmatic adherence to series of unsupported, overly complex claims, when more effective, more simple exlanation exist.

Miyagi closed the hands so was not interested in open sanchin. Does anyone here know why?

And Uechi saw the benefit of the claw-like positions; that's why he taught it and even posed in photos for it. But perhaps he didn't know how important it was.

I would say he was practising a kata which he knew was strategic in Kung Fu and he mimicked the hand positions.
But what if no-one had explained why those hand positions were important? He was just following the kata without any applications.

Or would someone like to support the idea that Uechi did Sanchin for groundfighting or multiple-opponent scenarios?

In fact, any Uechi-ka out there; could you tell me what Uechi said Sanchin was for? Why do you do it?

Or even better; let's throw the debate open.

Next time I'll explain our view of section one of open-hand sanchin in detail and you can explain your view.
we'll take the three sections in turn.

That will make for a more precise discussion.

Read you soon.

Gary

gang

Again, some basic information on the kata you claim to understand would help here.

Nobody really knows why Miyagi closed the hands in Sanchin, indeed, some people attribute the change to Higashionna.

The smart money is on a "change" because he wished to focus on certian aspects of the kata.

"Why" they do it is a question you would have a better grasp of if you had more exposure to goju/uechi training/kata.

Best answer is MANY reasons, as well as an entire conditioning aspect.

What does the Uechi person teaching you Sanchin kata, say its for.

I can't believe I am still reading this thread! I don't even stretch my neck to look at car wrecks when I drive.

This had me a little curious..

Quote:

---

The little finger and the indew are raised as they press against the foil of the sai (on the right side of the handle) to keep it pressed against the forearm.

---

I don't claim to be an expert at sai, but I have never seen the index finger used on the prong. It usually extends up the handle. Also, I tried that position and my little finger was not what helt the "blade" against my arm. It was a curling of all fingers.

gaugustcrane,


You got me twisted brother!! I did not learn groundfighting from any of the kata I was taught. I did,however,learn throws and takedowns from them,but that preferrably left me standing most of the time.

The groundfighting I learned comes from wrestling abd BJJ,it was just integrated into our system and we teach it that way,seperate from the kata.

When I do the bo kata I use a bo,when I practice sanseru,I don't.