kodo

Actually it was unfounded, unsupported "assumputions" and conjecture presented as "facts" that most folks were speaking too.

Questions as to motive were raised---but that is an entirly seperate issue from the accuracy of the claims made.

Attempting to "spin" the questions/observations made to be about "money" is precisely the kind of gross distortion of fact and situation that got people asking the hard questions in the first place.

And again it utterly ignores the very real "holes" in the material presented so far, and the very real errors in logic/history of the material presented.

gaug

Please do me the kindness of not trying to tell "me" what "I" am or am not doing in "my" own kata.

How could you possible know what a "claw-like grip" may or may not be used for in a style that you don't actuallly practice?????

Seriously, how???

So sight unseen, I can accuratly tell YOU what specific techniques IN YOUR OWN STYLE, "work" or not?
I can you what they are "for?"

And you'd "buy" that?????

If so I have some great bog....a...ah...FARM, I mean farmland I'd like to sell you at a really good price.

Ed
Have you ever met Nathan Johnson? because you seem to be totally convinced that he is all about money. Don't take my word for anything feel free to ask people like Bossman Steve Rowe who has known Nathan for a long time or Patrick Mccarthy another long term collegue if Nathan is all about money. Everyone knows you are not buying the book so why not borrow a copy and have a look at the material rather than going on about why it is not all on the net for free or the price of the book. Its the material about the kata that is important. There are in fact clips on youtube and Nathan has had many articles published over the years.

kodo

And here you go AGAIN, trying your feeble best to spin serious questions about serious errors in accuracy, logic and history---as presented, into "money."

AGAIN, its tactics like that got you hammered in the first place.

Failure to deal effective with serious, studied, well reasoned objections to unsupported conjecture have NOTHING to do with motives.

Ignoreing that fact and AGAIN, failing to respond to having that pointed out--twice now.

And attempting to shift the discussion as far awary from specifics as you possibly can.

As well as trying to impeach people on the basis of darkly hinted "motive" instead of factual rebuttal.

Says very little about anyones elses character but your OWN.

cxt
Ok please throw out some questions to do with "The Great Karate Myth".

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By understanding that Uechi Sanchin was the first taught in Okinawa, we have studied why Miyagi closed fists and perhaps what he hoped to achieve.
BUT we CAN NEVER be sure of any of this. Who can? None of your instructors. But the kata point to weapons, in just the same way that Sanchin, Rokushu and Naihanchin point to grappling and not multiple-opponent scenarios.

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Where does the idea come from that the Uechi sanchin was first studied in Okinawa ? If you would state that the open hand sanchin was first studied, I would agree but not perse the Uechi form. KNow that the Higashiaonna form was imported before the Uechi form and that the Aragaki form was also known before the Higashioaonna form.
According to people who trained with Higashiaonna, the closed fist form was first introduced by him and not by Miyagi. Miyagi adopted it as the standard in Goju-ryu.
BTW wich closed fist Miyagi sanchin do you study, with or without turns ?

Do you study the Miyagi sanchin for grappling only or also like Goju-ryu as basic kata for understanding power sourcing and transition in coordination with body/mind/spirit ?
Do you apply the principle of sinkuchi or do you, like shorin does, primarely generate power through whipping like motion not locking the lower body ?
Have to admit that in some movements in kata the difference is not always clear to me but I lack a lot of klowledge in shorin ryu.

I saw the Uechi sanchin sai application on the Kodoryu site and have a question regarding. Kodobrighton described the sai use as restraining weapon for disarming, yet apart from once, one sai was used to block and lock and the other one to stab. Outcome is indeed disarmerment by fatal injury. To what point do you consider restraining and disarming ? Till mostly fatal injury or not ?

kodo

Dude, what are you smokeing????

We are on 19 PAGES of direct questions/observations to claims made about the book--and your asking me:

"to throw out some questions."

Are you freaking kidding me???????

You just going to pretend that the last 19 PAGES just kinda never happend????

You want questions---there are 19 PAGES of them to start with.

Plus, I recall repeated requests for you/others to present direct material from the text.

A request that has failed to get any material presented.

And YOUR the guy questioning peoples motives--hah.

Ed,

The quote you have provided here is incomplete. It looks like a paraphrased version of what is written on the back of Barefoot Zen.

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it was never intended to be an actual means of self-defense

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“It” refers to the Shaolin teaching not kata in general.

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movements of both Kung Fu and Karate grew from the spiritual practices of the Shaolin order

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You seem to be overlooking the word “grew”. He is not claiming that the Shaolin ordered created all kata. In the book he postulates that the concept of kata comes from the concept of wordless gesture in Zen.

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By only looking at a narrow stream of kata, picking and choosing which ones to base wide-sweeping theory on...seems a fundamentally flawed method of analysis.

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I agree with this sentiment and this is something I pointed out to him. His answer was that Sanchin, Rukushu and Naifuanchin were the “key” kata in karate. However I would say that by looking at the kata of karate you can see that Sanchin, Rokushu and Naifuanchin stand out as being very different from the other kata and that the notion that they are "key" is statistically untrue. However I do accept advances in any science often come by attempting to understand unusual phenomena.

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likely just prior to the 18th century and once again from the Japanese at the turn of the 20th.

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According to the Kodo Ryu website…"In Southern China, from at least the Ming dynasty 1368 – 1644, there existed a 'civil arrest' tradition that utilised Sai and Nunchaku to disarm and arrest an armed offender, and 'seizing and grappling' techniques to subdue and arrest an un-armed offender, without killing or maiming in either case. The object being to ensure an offender was given the opportunity, - required by law - to be detained according to the due process of law and rendered up in fit condition to face trial."

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one puzzling thing about your post... you were studying 'Zen Shorin Do' and you disagreed of the inclusion of 'Zen' in it's form practice??

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Realisation is a slow process. In my final years as a ZSD ka I started to teach Zen Shorin Do independently. In doing so I reviewed the entire art because I wanted to be sure that what I was teaching was consistent and only then did I start to think about elements that were not evident in the kata.

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it's still a compliant training aid no matter how complex looking it becomes

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Again I agree, but the people that do this art view pushing hands as meditation and not a combative training aid.

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so the trend for pop-MA seems that a name brand 'Do' or 'Ryu' will be created for each and every theory now...the theories become the product, the name becomes it's tradmark. non-fighting 'Zen Shorin Do', push hands 'Ryoute'... and this year, the theory of 'kodoryu' hits the market.

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Ryoute is not a pushing hands art, it is a hand grappling art. Also Ryou in Ryoute means “both” not school as in Kodo Ryu. In any case theories that go against the grain have to set up on their own separately since the mainstream styles are highly dogmatic.

Jeff…

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What does/did that make them prey tell from your perspective of course?

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If we are talking about the Zen Shorin Do forms Sanchin, Rokushu and Naifuanchin. It made them forms that describe hand grappling techniques which are unfortunately not particularly useful in a self defence format. If we are talking about karate forms in general my current position is that techniques created specifically for Double Hand Grappling sequenced together and done in the air strongly resemble karate kata both in style and detail and I do not believe that this is a co-incidence. Once I have created a self defence kata I will be able to decide whether or not there are any self defence movements contained in kata. Obviously I know you can all use kata for self defence but one can use an object for many things that it was not designed for.

I’m hoping that Tom or Gary will answer my questions and other peoples for that matter. Perhaps if everyone compiled a numbered list they would find it easier to go through them.

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Question 1. In changing the name to Kodo Ryu are Nathan et al wishing to remove the Zen aspects of the art?

Question 2. When using the Sai what are you defending yourself against?

Question 3. How realistic is the civil arrest training that you do when arresting an opponent with Sai or Double Hand Grappling or both?

Question 4: Aren’t Sai farming tools?

Question 5: Why is the distribution of The Great Karate Myth so poor? I mean 4-6 weeks from Amazon? What’s going on their?

Question 6: Given a pair of Sai and an understanding of how and in what context to use them, would I be able to create kata that resemble karate kata?

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Martin

OK Guys,

just a polite reminder to keep it plesant, we all have our opinions and views/expeirience, lets try and make this a good thread withoubt getting to offensive,

we are adults........

I have today sent of my copie of The Great Karate Myth, book and DVD to Victor to have a look at,

if he gets through it quick enough (I would like it back within a couple of months, ish) and is happy to arrange then it can be passed on a couple of times (to serious posters on this thread),

I would like it back but will get over it if it doesnt happen as I will just buy another copie (ouch £).

At least this way with fair wind a few of the main people with serious questions will get to actually see what its all about and be able to give a solid view.

(although I understand that many disagree with statements from our 2 KoDo Ryu members anyhow).

Martin here is a few answers to the Q.s
1.partially yes.
2.someone armed.
3. I don't carry Sai to arrest people but the practise is as realistic as possible.
4. No
5.I have nothing to do with the distirbution of the book so I dont know.
6.I am sure you could.