I had to look 'sophistry' up. sounded like a made-up word.

Quote:

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sophistry: subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation.

---

huh. always cool to learn new words...but I haven't seen it's use in this thread. the deceptive argumentation had nothing subtle about it. lol

it's a red herring cxt. there are no supporting facts...you are bascially arguing with someone who agrees with someone elses opinion. and they will never mention the details of that opinion since the whole point is for people to buy the book...not just give unsubstantiated opinion away for free like people in forums do. lol

It would be nice to get some actual detail on where these theories have come from. Oneheart, can you give us some specifics from the book?

Ed

Its also a tactic used to twist things around so as to cover ones VERY exposed backside--as One has so aptly demonstrated.

Its kinda sad really.

Nathen is being very poorly represented by folk such as One.

Its also sad that One--having the book, could have easily presented exact quotes and examples, possibly even scanned relevent portions, presented detailed subject matter with direct support from the work itself.

(proper attribution, work cited for the purpose of discussion/debate, not for $$$$$$ gain, only parts of work presented etc would get him around any copy restrictions)

I can only assume that One, not being a total idiot--not total realized quite early on that anything he DIRECTLY quotes/referenced would be ripped apart in short order by informed folks.

Leaving him with nothing between him and the big, scary, cold, cruel world but the tatters and shreds of his wacked ideas.

Like I said, its really a shame, I don't agree with what has been presented so far---but we have yet to hear more details from Kodo etc.

Might be an interesting discussion--once people step up and start presenting some actual information.

well...nothing says we can't have our own conversation based on the reviews of others who have read the material and/or are familiar with the technical arguments.

here are a couple review threads I could find:
http://gojuryu.net/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=36&thread_id=528

http://www.karatedo-forum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1678&st=0

http://okinawakarateblog.blogspot.com/2006/08/empty-hand-kata-as-weapons-kata-there.html

but I like Kane's argument the best:
"...you just can't do a yama uke or mawashe uke with a sai and expect to find any practical application for the technique."
http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=5;t=000028

lol. good point.

LOL.you guys are like the karate mythbusters!!

Hi Ed,

Now I've only been working Sai 30 years or so but the next time we get together you throw the punch and see if I can 'mawashe uke' (or 'tora guchi') with my sai or not.

I don't think you'll be happy with the answer and I'll only go 1/2 speed.

ROTFLOL

Aragaki no sai Taisho-Period 1912 - 1926
Chatanyara no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Chihara no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Hakuta (Gawa) no sai Meiji-Restauration 1868 - 1912
Hamahiga no sai Ryukyu-Königreich 1414 - 1867
Hantagawa no sai (Tantagua) Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Ishikawaguwa no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Jigen no sai Taisho-Period 1912 - 1926
Kogusoku no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Kojo (Kagi) no sai Meiji-Restauration 1868 - 1912
Kourugawa no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Kuniyoshi no sai Meiji-Restauration 1868 - 1912
Matayoshi no sai Taisho-Periode 1912 - 1926
Matsuhiga no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Matsumura no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Nakazato no sai Showa-Periode 1926 - 1989
Nicho sai Showa-Periode 1926 - 1989
Renshuho Showa-Periode 1926 - 1989
Renshuho taibo no sai Showa-Periode 1926 - 1989
Ryueiryu no sai Showa-Periode 1926 - 1989
Sakugawa no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Sancho sai Unknown
Shihohai no sai Unknown
Shinbaru no sai Unknown
Soken no sai Taisho-Periode 1912 - 1926
Tawada no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Tokuyama no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Tsuken Shitahaku sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Ufuchiku no sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Ushi sai Ryukyu-Kingdom 1414 - 1867
Yakaa no sai Meiji-Restauration 1868 - 1912


This is a list of the known sai kata on Okinawa and from what period they were known in Okinawa. Most of them are from the time of the Ryukyu kingdom and although this list might not be complete I am pretty sure 95% is in there.

I see no sanchin no sai or sesan no sai or sanseiru no sai in there. Or it was still kept secret and Nathan Johnson is about the only one who was allowed this information or the old masters (Uechi/Miyagi/Juhatsu/Higashiaonna/Aragaki/Matsumura/Matsumora/....) never learned the true intentions of the kata they learned from their teachers.

I'm sure I wouldn't Victor, steel tends to be a bit hard on my skin and bones. question is, do you subscribe to the view that most okinawan kata were intended for sai applications?

and if so, is it based upon anything.

(btw, I'm pretty sure your half-speed sai-assisted mawashi uke would work fine if you already had sai drawn....but I'm also pretty sure I can punch faster than a double draw at close range).

Ed,

From what I've seen there has been no credible historical documentation that until the modern era, kobudo was incorporated into karate in any substantial way. In other words there were people who had some training, but not that karate utilized it formally.

I belive it was a clip of Mr. Johnson's sai kata that began this thread. From the angle it was shot, and not knowing the intent, all I would say is I don't see the martial intent behind the technique. Not good or bad, for it could just be a light demonstration.

My focus on kobudo is for the secondary value building speed, power, manipulation skills for my kata application studies. I don't give a hang about using them for defensive reasons, never have. For that I'd use a stick if I was of such mind.

As for drawing the sai. If I was carrying sai they'd be in my hands, not on my belt. But as I said they're unrealistic in a world where metal detectors are the future.

Yes China (and all SE Asia) used sai, and are likely the source how they came to Okinawa. I've seen Chinese sai forms, and they are different from Okinawa's.

But to answer your question, if my sai were 'holstered' I'd just use my hands. It's not like you're a real threat <GRIN>

Sorry about that, but humor is often the best answer for these hypothetical questions.

c'mon now Victor...you give me too much credit by even having to mention I'm not a threat. lol