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#296255 - 10/29/06 03:48 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: student_of_life]
oneheart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
"That is part of the problem here.
What you describe is simply not a "proof" of any sort.
Its an "opinion" a "viewpoint" a "guess" or a "conjecture" at best.Its not a proof of any kind. By even calling it such is "proof" that people are not using important terms properly---which calls into question the entire line of reasoning."

From my original post:

I just finished reading "The Great Karate Myth" and along with Mr. Johnson's other books, thought it was great...not because I agree with all the conclusions he makes, but because he has a unique, well thought out point of view. The "evidence" he gives regarding his theories is mostly, in truth, his opinion, seemingly supported by certain facts, however, how much hard evidence and fact is there regarding kata bunkai?

And later in the same post:

The above gives him a pretty unique perspective, and I think has caused him to look for supporting evidence (both physical and historical) of a wing chun type of "structure" to the historical practice of karate kata.

I challenge anyone to "prove" conclusively what any pre 1950's kata is for. I believe that Mr. Johnson has presented a very interesting perspective. I don't accept them as gospel, just say that they are interesting and provide substantial food for thought. Many people today have "created their own system," and Mr. Johnson is no different save one thing. He has created something that is to a large degree, internally consistent. This is my interest in his work. We can argue about what "proof" means all day, but that is not very interesting (not to me at least...) I would love to address this topic in more detail, but my time today is limited.

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#296256 - 10/29/06 05:52 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: oneheart]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
One

Taking about your last post-not your first one.

Then please, please, pretty please stop using the term "proof."

Its not, comes nowhere close.

Besides--if you wish to actually have a discussion--as opposed to simple posting and reposting your opinions.

The please, please, pretty please take the time to actually read the response people make.

I spent quite a bit of time, in GREAT detail exactly why your previous post was flawed in terms of logic and example used.

You simple ignored it and just re-stated your positon.

Sorry to have be harsh--but your wrong, I told you exactly WHY your wrong and exactly want errors seem to have been made.

You either can't or wont address the specfic and detailed criticsim---fine, then go hide under your bed.

Just don't waste my time claiming you wish to have a discussion--when you "really" don't.

Oh, AGAIN, because you don't seem to listening.

Mr. Johnson and YOU have stated what YOU feel the kata were "for"--thus YOU MUST back up YOUR OWN POSTS.

Not for "us" to prove you wrong---athough I did a pretty good job on your last post

Its YOUR job to prove your right.

Thats going to take A LOT more than you have presented so far.

I like actual discussion---I hate dogmatic statements of fact when NO facts are in evidence.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#296257 - 10/29/06 08:09 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: oneheart]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hello Oneheart, many thanks for explaining the ideas and attempting to provide the answers that the Ko-do ryu sensei seemed unwilling to provide. I got the impression that you are not linked with Ko-do ryu and just find the book interesting, if so your effort is doubly appreciated.

From what you have written it sounds like Mr Johnson has done some interesting work, if what has been written here is correct it is just a shame that he has tried to label his work as truth instead of the more honest title of an "educated guess".

I think the idea of applying Sanchin, Tensho and Naihanchi as contact/grappling based close quarter work makes perfect sense. I've seen very little Naha-te, but what I have seen always struck me as lacking that contact based element (chi-sao) which would more clearly link it to the southern chinese styles (esp White Crane).

My thinking this has nothing to do with the truth of the nature of these kata but to me it seems to fit.

As for the weapons idea... No. Many more knowledgeable than I, have and I'm sure will again, give the reasons why not.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#296258 - 10/29/06 10:12 PM Kodoryu [Re: kodobrighton2006]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mr Maxwell:



I am... extremely surprised by the degree of strong feelings of which this thread apparently has been a catalyst.

Not having yet read Mr. Johnson's current work, I can make no comments as to that. Would it be correct to say that Mr. Johnson has again postulated certain martial arts ~hypothesis~ (plural?) if you will? Some of the conclusions-hypothesesis are sufficently different (from the ~standard~ if you will) that a stronger academic " 3 source primary research" rule would be appropriate for his presentation?

He seemingly has opened a door, whether it is mirage, or of substance will be determined by thosse who follow its path. I liked the ~basic premises~ of his previous works but was not compelled they were entirely "correct" . As other members contended far more passionately than I would certainly dare...

Myself, "certain fact" or not they are interesting ideas and an unusual perspective. As my login name I hope implys I am... not a fan of rigid views or perspectives. If Mr. Johnson has found ~gems~ from his polishing, his research I look forward to learning more of them. Hopefully the passion/zeal that some have brought will cool...

Sincerely,

Jeff <wearing his flame proof PJ's>

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#296259 - 10/29/06 10:39 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: Shonuff]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Shonuff

Most naha te (naha te being an umbrella term for various appraochs of karate) put quite a bit on focus on various "contact" aspects--not the least of which being sanchin and "arm rubbing" and bunkai.

Can't speak for all naha systems of course--just what I have seen.

As other folks than myself have suggested--one of the problems here might just be limited exposure to naha te practices, which would effect the baseline posit.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#296260 - 10/29/06 10:55 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: cxt]
oneheart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
I'll respond to each of your points this time, one by one.

“One, Talking about your last post-not your first one.
Then please, please, pretty please stop using the term "proof."Its not, comes nowhere close.”

That was my whole point in reposting my first post…maybe I was unclear when I said that what seems to be presented as “proof” or “evidence” is really just Mr. Johnson’s opinion.

”Besides--if you wish to actually have a discussion--as opposed to simple posting and reposting your opinions. The please, please, pretty please take the time to actually read the response people make.”

I did take the time to read your post, and responded with the text from my original post due to time constraints.

”I spent quite a bit of time, in GREAT detail exactly why your previous post was flawed in terms of logic and example used. You simple ignored it and just re-stated your positon.”

I did not ignore either your post or your effort, just found it inconsequential…your argument is with Mr. Johnson’s logic, not mine (and your argument is based on a relatively small part of his theory and incomplete understanding of it)

“Sorry to have be harsh—but your wrong, I told you exactly WHY your wrong and exactly want errors seem to have been made.”

Well you may believe Mr. Johnson is wrong…but since you don’t have any idea what I personally believe about the situation outside of my respect for Mr. Johnson’s ingenuity and the unique point of view he presents, I think you may be unjustified and ill informed in your assessment.

“You either can't or wont address the specfic and detailed criticsim---fine, then go hide under your bed.”

Well, no honestly, I didn’t have the time

”Just don't waste my time claiming you wish to have a discussion--when you "really" don't. ”

I’m not interested in “debating” or arguing semantics or who can critically deconstruct someone’s point of view with out even knowing what their point of view is.

”Oh, AGAIN, because you don't seem to listening.”

I don’t think the problem is my lack of listening. Maybe my explanations have been unclear, and that may have contributed to your lack of understanding.

”Mr. Johnson and YOU have stated what YOU feel the kata were "for"--thus YOU MUST back up YOUR OWN POSTS. Not for "us" to prove you wrong---athough I did a pretty good job on your last post ”

Again you have no idea what my personal views on kata are…I simply stated that Mr. Johnson’s views are interesting food for thought.

”Its YOUR job to prove your right.”

I have no interest in being “right” so far as this discussion is concerned…I would hope that I could provoke some interesting thoughts and have others do the same for me.

All for now, time for bed…really, just going to bed, not cowering under it...

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#296261 - 10/29/06 11:08 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: Shonuff]
oneheart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
Quote:

Hello Oneheart, many thanks for explaining the ideas and attempting to provide the answers that the Ko-do ryu sensei seemed unwilling to provide. I got the impression that you are not linked with Ko-do ryu and just find the book interesting, if so your effort is doubly appreciated.




Thanks, no, I am in no way linked to Kodo ryu and my interest in Mr. Johnsons work is exclusivly intellectual.

Quote:

From what you have written it sounds like Mr Johnson has done some interesting work, if what has been written here is correct it is just a shame that he has tried to label his work as truth instead of the more honest title of an "educated guess".




I totally agree

Quote:

I think the idea of applying Sanchin, Tensho and Naihanchi as contact/grappling based close quarter work makes perfect sense. I've seen very little Naha-te, but what I have seen always struck me as lacking that contact based element (chi-sao) which would more clearly link it to the southern chinese styles (esp White Crane).




This is in fact the part of his theory I'm most interested in. His Sanchin Boxing presented in the book was very insightful.

Quote:

As for the weapons idea... No. Many more knowledgeable than I, have and I'm sure will again, give the reasons why not.




yeah, I'm unsure what to think about that...maybe I'll post my random thoughts about it in the next few days...

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#296262 - 10/29/06 11:10 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: oneheart]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
oneheart

No, I was responding directly to comments made in YOUR post.

Perhaps they can traced back to the book in question, perharps they can't---we still have not seen the text yet.

Either why--YOUR the guy who stated that if karate were really an empty hand art it would look more like JKD or boxing.

(among other things)

I just pointed out--among other things---that such a conclusion was misplaced.

As far as point of view--well I can only deal what YOU post--the more so since my mind reading abilites don't work well over water.

Like I said before---you want to have a thought provoking discussion?

Great--so do I.

But why is it that when people wish to have a "thought provoking discussion" what they really often mean is to "provoke" everyoens thinking but their OWN.

I still note that you have yet to deal with my responses to the points you raised--you have time to BMW about me making them--you should have had plenty of time to respond to them.

Conjecture that can't take the gaff of detailed, reasoned critcial analysis should be dropped.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#296263 - 10/29/06 11:30 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: oneheart]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Man this is funny! I'm sorry I missed the last few days here,but it has gotten deep and I ain't wearin' rubbers!!!


"Ryan",how very convenient for you to come along in such a timely fashion,lol.

This is just one (bad)long advertisement as far as I'm concerned.

Until the legitimate questions are answered, that's all it is,bad advertisement.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#296264 - 10/29/06 11:53 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Amen, Brian. I doubt there has been any effective explaination other than 'buy the book and DVD'. most people can see right thru that...but sometimes it's controvery itself that sells. eg. they get people to buy it so they can disprove it.

I fell into that trap once, and never again. I save money now by trusting my insticts.

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