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MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores. |
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22740 Members
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#296265 - 10/30/06 05:53 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
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No doubt the 'exposure' is all part of the plan for Toms wide spread activity on the forums, however personally I think thats good as I genuinly believe that every classically minded karateka should read Nathans work.
Lets not forget that Tom is away teaching this weekend and back sometime today, so before we all start jumping up and down lets hear back from him, im sure he will present a detailed and thoughtfull response.
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#296266 - 10/30/06 08:01 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: cxt]
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Newbie
Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
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Cxt, someone asked me to try to explain some of the "evidence" given by Mr. johnson. I tried to do so, admittedly without my copy of the book handy. The JKD/Boxing explaination was me paraphrasing part of Mr. Johnsons argument. Cxt, you may have some very valid points in regard to this line of argument...The argument is not mine...take it up with Mr. johnson. While I find his work interesting, and agree with the moderator, I have my own independant views on kata and their practice. For those of you wondering, I've lived my entire life (although I've travelled quite a bit) in central Pennsylvania about 15 miles outside hershey. I work in law enforcement and security at a small liberal arts college, you can find more proof of my existence here http://www.etown.edu/CampusSecurity.aspx?topic=DepartmentPersonnelI'm the 4th officer under full time staff. I've been a student of Isshinryu karate for about 12 years and on and off in some chinese systems for about 10. Also studied Arnis and silat in that time. I've never been to england and never trained with any Kodo ryu member. I'm at work today, and won't have any more time for this. depending what Tom has to say I may rejoin the conversation tuesday. Ryan
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#296267 - 10/30/06 08:40 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: oneheart]
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Veteran
Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
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when you get the time, would you mind posting a few examples of why the book interested you so much?
i mean, just a few points of interest that could give us a better understanding as to what the heart of the book is after.
i have to say, looking back over the thred now it does look kinda like a flame fest on ya buddy. sorry your first few posts had to meet with this level of interrogation.
but, you really only said that he had an interesting book out, and that was about it. so please provide a few examples of the guys conclusions and logic.
i've already stated my feelings about this type of thing, and thats all i can do, without reading the book. truefully i don't plan on buying it anytime soon. but arsehole critics like me are a dime a dozen, and im sre mr. johnson is used to dealing with my kind.
on a side note, interesting dscussion you got.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense
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#296268 - 10/30/06 09:26 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: oneheart]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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One Look, matters little "whose" arguement it was YOU repeated it, YOU made statements about kata, raiseing blocks, etc thus YOUR responsable. As an example, the JKD/Boxing "arguement" is a BAD arguement no matter where it comes from Its either stuff you read somewhere else and just repeated or its stuff you thought up on your own. Either way, not my problem. This is the other thing that irks me. People come here claiming to want to have intellgent discussions about things--the term YOU used was "provoke." Then when THEY get "provoked" they get all huffy. People get too emotionally involved in their "pet" theories, too involved to take an objective look at what they are saying, what errors they may have made, what they have may have overlooked etc. Eveybody knows that the harder they train the more "stress tested" their martial arts are--the BETTER they become. Oddly few people want to apply the same kind of hard, resistant "stress testing" to their pet theories.  Just hitting air in training makes for a weak martial artist. Just hitting air with ones ideas makes for weak ideas.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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#296269 - 10/30/06 09:52 PM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: cxt]
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Newbie
Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
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In response to CTX
“This is the other thing that irks me. Then when THEY get "provoked" they get all huffy.
People get too emotionally involved in their "pet" theories, too involved to take an objective look at what they are saying, what errors they may have made, what they have may have overlooked etc.”
Hey, come on, I wasn’t trying to provoke you, seriously, I don't think you've made any errors, youre just being you! It's not your problem, we are all here to help you through it! I know what its like when people get upset and all huffy…can’t seem to or just refuse to focus on what it is your saying…I’m sorry if you just don’t understand, its nothing to get emotional about and don’t worry, no need to apologize, no hard feelings!
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#296271 - 10/31/06 07:58 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: BrianS]
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Newbie
Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 19
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One of the things that interests me about the system Mr. johnson presents is how well all the "pieces" of the empty hand system seem to fit together. Very wing chun like in both concept and their use of sanchin. Their main practice seems to be push hands, then sanchin and the applications of it in a pushhands like format called "sanchin boxing."The push hands and sanchin boxing utilise a set of conceptual "gates," similar to those used in wing chun, that Mr. johnson based on the first posture in sanchin. Sanchin boxing includes body punches, passes, traps and some close fisted reception movements (like the very first posture fron the kata). All the tech. in "sanchin boxing" are drawn out of Miyagi Sanchin. This is done in way similar to wing chun's forms. Also covered are some chinna techniques against the wrist Mr. Johnson claims are contained in Miyagi sanchin. So the next thing studied is wrist grip excapes from tensho kata, which put you in the correct positions to apply either the sanchin boxing or the locks from Naihanchi, which according to the website, is the final emptyhand kata, a chinna based kata created to catalog arrest techniques. The naihanchi used is claimed to have been "properly restructuted" to present the "original practice"(don't know about that). Then, I assume, the kodoryu student studies the "weapons" kata based off what we would all recognize as the empty hand forms of uechi/pangainoon tradition. Again very much like the wing chun "butterfly swords", and Mr. Johnson hypothesises in his book that maybe the sais were a peace time version of them. It is his claim that most of the kata we practice are drawn from ming dynasty china and that they were part of a system of "civil arrest" that relied on the sais heavily to suppliment the empty hand skills needed to restrain and effectivly control those who would disturbe the peace. I find this interesting...but if it is true to any degree it must only be a partial truth (for a ton of reasons...).
another thing that interests me is the visual reflexes vs contact reflexes. I have accepted for quite a while that any practical applications for kata would have to be based on "contact" and "sensitivity" applied at close quarters. I like the practice of push hands or tegumi as presented by Patrick Mccarthy for that reason. Mr. Johnson believes kata have a singular purpose, one set of applications per movement. He says this makes sense because muscle memory and contact reflex responses would be “confused” by “layered” multiple applications for each movement. He also says that "old masters" may have practiced and taught fewer kata for the same reason.
More later...
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#296272 - 10/31/06 10:43 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: CVV]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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an interesting thing I found worth taking a closer look at: http://www.wle.com/products/VHG32D.htmlQuote:
Gen are the predecessor to the popular Okinawan Sai. These heavy metal rods were also China’s ancient police batons. Despite their illustrious history, few people still practice Gen. Now you can be one of the few who master this rare weapon. This video shows you the method behind this significant martial arts weapon, overlooked by many practitioners today. Preserve the legacy!
The problem is, "Grandmaster/Sifu Wing Lam" (via DVD's, books, and his enterprize http://www.wle.com/) is the only source I can find of this information.
the source of this info must be documented somewhere if it is indeed historical fact, and I'm assuming The 'Myth' book must mention the source since it is central to his theory.
also, without a source, I'd be doubly suspicious of the info if any venturing ties between Mr. Wing Lam and Mr. Nathan Johnson came to light. I'm not suggesting it, I'm only pointing out that cross-referenced 'fact' is not fact at all without independant source.
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#296273 - 10/31/06 11:04 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: oneheart]
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
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Quote:
One of the things that interests me about the system Mr. johnson presents is how well all the "pieces" of the empty hand system seem to fit together. Very wing chun like in both concept and their use of sanchin. Their main practice seems to be push hands, then sanchin and the applications of it in a pushhands like format called "sanchin boxing."The push hands and sanchin boxing utilise a set of conceptual "gates," similar to those used in wing chun, that Mr. johnson based on the first posture in sanchin. Sanchin boxing includes body punches, passes, traps and some close fisted reception movements (like the very first posture fron the kata). All the tech. in "sanchin boxing" are drawn out of Miyagi Sanchin. This is done in way similar to wing chun's forms. Also covered are some chinna techniques against the wrist Mr. Johnson claims are contained in Miyagi sanchin. So the next thing studied is wrist grip excapes from tensho kata, which put you in the correct positions to apply either the sanchin boxing or the locks from Naihanchi, which according to the website, is the final emptyhand kata, a chinna based kata created to catalog arrest techniques. The naihanchi used is claimed to have been "properly restructuted" to present the "original practice"(don't know about that). Then, I assume, the kodoryu student studies the "weapons" kata based off what we would all recognize as the empty hand forms of uechi/pangainoon tradition. Again very much like the wing chun "butterfly swords", and Mr. Johnson hypothesises in his book that maybe the sais were a peace time version of them. It is his claim that most of the kata we practice are drawn from ming dynasty china and that they were part of a system of "civil arrest" that relied on the sais heavily to suppliment the empty hand skills needed to restrain and effectivly control those who would disturbe the peace. I find this interesting...but if it is true to any degree it must only be a partial truth (for a ton of reasons...).
another thing that interests me is the visual reflexes vs contact reflexes. I have accepted for quite a while that any practical applications for kata would have to be based on "contact" and "sensitivity" applied at close quarters. I like the practice of push hands or tegumi as presented by Patrick Mccarthy for that reason. Mr. Johnson believes kata have a singular purpose, one set of applications per movement. He says this makes sense because muscle memory and contact reflex responses would be “confused” by “layered” multiple applications for each movement. He also says that "old masters" may have practiced and taught fewer kata for the same reason.
More later...
I agree that there is a need for partner contact and sensitivity training as seen Tai Chi push hands. Goju and Uechi both use a harder type of push hand or sensitivity training called "kakie". Here's a YouTube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFFPUhjmsuQ
Looks very Wing Chun-ish too, huh?
In good Okinawan karate you also engage in circle blocking drills where your hands and forearms make continuous contact with your partner.
The author of the book you dig so much makes a lot of assertions. Some seem logical and I agree that the Okinawan styles are related to systems like White Crane and offshoots like Wing Chun. What I can't agree with without proof is that bunkai in kata is specific, each movement denoting one interpretation. Nope. There are some obvious applications one can glean from a front kick, lead punch combo of movements. What I've been taught about bunkai is that each movement usually has multiple interpretations which your creativity, experience and understanding of the kihon allows you to define (specific to what is needed).
Kata puts you in a good position to allow for combat adaptability. It gives the mind and body options trained through repetition. I do think you can personalize the forms, make them work for the karate that you do, but I disagree that this was the original intent of the forms. Plus itt's about more than combat; weapons or emptyhand.
Oh and I don't doubt you can do the emptyhand kata with weapons. I had a Shorinkan sensei who would clean up in competitions by performing Chinto as a Sai kata. Ananku Sai also comes to mind. The reality is that most Toudi was trained with weapons and nonweapons conflict in mind. They were inclusive aspects. In fact the word "kobujutsu" directly translates to "old war art", and includes the entire gamut of old style training.
Again, there is a delineation between what is a weapons form vs. an emptyhand form. It's funny to me how these gendai budo guys like this cat and Clayton want to tell you their little secrets about karate. I've always been taught since the early 1980s that Suidi was a Palace Guard art. I have trained in systems which have a more original and intact form of the kata.
One of the bunkai I was taught for Naihanchi side-stepping, before Clayton even thought of writing a book, was for body guards on four sides to move using their bodies to perfectly shield a dignitary or the king during a procession. Made sense, but then again that was just one analysis of many for that movement.
If Mr. Johnson wants to learn what the movements mean in kata he doesn't need to speculate. All he has to do is find qualified shinshi in an Okinawan ryuha.
All this reminds me of a great japanese karate-ka's take on kata training. Ohtsuka's (Wado Ryu founder) use of "alive" and "dead" kata makes perfect sense. The kata is a reflection of the style, dojo, teacher and most importantly the practitioner. Good kata training never, ever needs reverse engineering and assumption to fill in the bunkai.
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#296274 - 10/31/06 11:51 AM
Re: Kodoryu
[Re: Unsu]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
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Blimey - thought I was on the Shi Kon Forum there....  I've known Nathan Johnson for nearly 20 years and have watched him train, research and grow over that period of time. He helped me a lot about 15 years ago with my research into pushing hands. He came from a Wing Chun and Karate base and is a natural researcher. If you put his name into an amazon search engine you will see that he has authored and co-authored many books on a variety of subjects, all well researched and over a long period of time. Nathan and I disagree on many things in the Martial Arts and that's what helps bond our friendship - we're allowed to disagree and be grown up. Like most academics he researches, publishes and moves on - he doesn't even have a particular interest in the controvesy and certainly hasn't asked anyone to 'argue his case'. Also like all academics (and the bulk of us MA instructors) he certainly ain't rich! If you can go train with him do so, we had him for a course recently on the subject of the book and my guys thoroughly enjoyed it as 'something different' to what we usually do. He's a real character, loves academia and martial arts, a bit of a hermit, hard to get in touch with and doesn't have access to the internet. He doesn't even know what's on his website and is already immersed in another project. I think Tom just likes a good argument, I'm the opposite in character to Nathan yet we can meet up, often with Chris Rowen the goju practitioner, have lunch, talk martial crap, exchange ideas, have a laugh and go our seperate ways. And we've remained good friends for a long time.
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