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#296215 - 10/26/06 07:41 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: kodobrighton2006]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm not 'productive' to what? someone's book sales?

To claim to know undocumented history as 'fact' is more unproductive and disservice than someone calling that fact out.

critical thought is never personal, and while poking fun at times even when self-inflicted, no disrespect to anyone intended. have a safe journey.

#296216 - 10/26/06 08:56 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: kodobrighton2006]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
I am happy to discuss. I like discussion. I don't like salesmen. The Ko-do website states
"the classical kata and their precise applications backed by hard evidence are today only practised by members of Ko-do Ryu."

What is the evidence?
I would love to hear it but I refuse to buy the book and I personally feel that refusal to openly discuss such a claim can only be a sales tactic.

Another question: What do you (your group) define as Karate in the context of the great myth?
I ask because a research group I signed up to a while back defined Karate only as Shuri-te based systems descended of Matsumura, thus excluding such systems as Uechi and Goju ryu and all their kata/methods.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#296217 - 10/26/06 11:12 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: kodobrighton2006]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Ok, follow me here bro.

1-YOU made the oginal claim concenring the kata--so the burden of proof is on YOU.

Do YOU have any evidenice that only 3 of the goju kata are actually chinese?

See, I don't have to prove you wrong--YOU have to prove your right.

2-I'll start siting sources when YOU do.

All you have done so far is repeat what you claim one book said.
And you don't even quote that book directly, you just say "that what it says."

3-If Miyagi "made them up" then please explain how K. Higaonas first teacher Aragaki was demonstrating them before Miyagi was even born????

4-Think it thu there slick, nearly every "name-guy" in Okinawan karate trained in China at one time---what were they learning there????

5-Again, please prsent the text in question or where I can find an on-line copy so I can see for myself the quality of the work.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#296218 - 10/26/06 11:28 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: shoshinkan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

I'm not questioning the skills or the seriousness of Kodo or his people.

Am questioning his conclusions.

Personally I have been around the block a time or two in my 20 plus years of training, know a bit about the history and background of karate first hand.
And what claims he makes do not "jive" with my personal experiences.

On a more professional level, as someone that knows quite a bit about research methodology, formal agumentation, formal logic, rhetoric etc.

The posits he has presented so far are the worst kind of poor reasoning--he does even do proper source cites.

Not having the book here, I cannot comment on its veracity--but speaking professionally, if Kodo is an example of its tone and what it considers to be valid reasoning, then I really don't think I can justify buying it.

ALWAYS interestd in learning more about the history of the art, ALWAYS interestd in frank, detailed discussion about peoples ideas, opinions and theory.

I can do without the ire and venom of a person with a pet theory that has more holes in it than they thought.
Or the anger of a person whose too emotionally invested in a research project to be able to discuss its shortcomings rationally.

I get enough of that here at work.

They indeed may be great guys--I see no reason to think that would be anything BUT great guys.

That however, does make them right.

Great guys--even highly skilled great guys can still be very, very, mistaken.

Edited by cxt (10/26/06 11:29 AM)
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#296219 - 10/26/06 11:36 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: cxt]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
dose it even matter any more what the kata were orioginally intended for? i mean honestly?, i get out of them what i want, im sure wel all do. i don't need to give that guy a nickel to tell me some hair brained conspericy theory about why the kata's meanings were hidden or forgotten or lost.

i hope his students enjoy there time with him, 20 years expirence usually means that he knows a thing or two. i really do think that his books are just a gimick to make money, let my flaming begin!!
its not supposed to make sense

#296220 - 10/26/06 11:48 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: cxt]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Ah don't get me wrong I disagree with most of Nathan Sensei conclusions,

my point is that their work is very good, and very usefull.
Jim Neeter

#296221 - 10/26/06 11:57 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: shoshinkan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

As karate-ka I'm sure that they/it are quite valuable.

As researchers however, not nearly so sure.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#296222 - 10/26/06 12:01 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: shoshinkan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

I am confused by your statement. You disagree about the "conclusions," yet you consider their work "very good, and very useful." Why?

Are you considering their research faulty, but their technical ability sufficient? The focus of the discussion I thought was outside the ken of "ability" and was focused on research that would direct one to accurate conclusions. If the conclusions are inaccurate (in your opinion), how can you find the work "good?"

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that by just swirling things up a bit, this offers pointed discussions without accurate presentation of history to inform their conclusions, are you stating that the work is good because it showcases what you perceive as accurate by its opposition?

Sorry, but I don't get it. The questions were always aimed at veracity of research and explanation, not technical proficiency.


Edited by butterfly (10/26/06 12:02 PM)

#296223 - 10/26/06 01:00 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: kodobrighton2006]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Howdy Tom!

See your still fighting the good fight! Wonder as you've been back in the Country are you going to take Mr Rowe up on his offer to show his "interpretations" of the kata's?

Anyway we've been through all my opinions on Kodo Ryu stuff and Jim will tell me off if start up here. Anyway nice to see the arguements of the battle haven't changed... merely the battle ground. Where's the next planned battle to be staged? martialartsplanet, e-budo or perhaps Bullshido (you'd have fun there!).

Welcome to the forum! A good luck with the agenda... ooops I mean research! Sorry, only joshing!


PS. I still ain't buying the theory or the book though!
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#296224 - 10/26/06 01:18 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: butterfly]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Butterfly,

LOL, yes I guess my point of view is an odd one.

OK I shall be clear this time, I got alot out of Barefoot Zen, a mixture of Nathan's Sensei point of view and hard fact was most interesting to me.

The Great Karate myth is IMO one of the best researched books around, reading through it I found very interesting for the same reasons as above.

However the conclusions I disagree with but the works themselves are superb.

Having met and trained with Ko-Do ryu people I found their karate to be very good indeed so I guess im supporting their efforts perhaps more than I normally would.

A few years back I found the rather strange ability to get along with people and accept them even when I think along different lines!

I guess it's called an open mind.
Jim Neeter

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