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#296445 - 11/21/06 07:48 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
BTW,

I think it is important that you understand I do not practice traditional okinawan goju-ryu. Would not want to, to tell the truth.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#296446 - 11/21/06 07:50 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: gaugustcrane]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Ed,

Quote:

I challenge you to seek a qualified kobudo instructor, study for a few years...then re-evaluate.




Never said I wouldn’t, although I was hoping that the threat of being beaten with a big stick would sharpen up my sai skills quite fast; I’m a strong believer in DIY. Also I trust Nathan when it comes to kata applications, which may be misplaced, but he was my sensei for eights years. Can you recommend anyone in the Birmingham area?

Gary,

Q3. During training how do you move from a gap to a position where you have both hands tied up in Naifuanchin lock type configuration. How do you subsequently prevent them from escaping using brute force?

Q7: How long are the sai, bo and sword in Kodo Ryu.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#296447 - 11/21/06 08:53 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: gaugustcrane]
nahate Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
The top picture of Kanei Uechi is a snapshot from Uechi Seisan. He has just completed an elbow strike with the upper hand. The purpose of the open hand position as explained to me by my Uechi instructor was simply to tighten the forearm muscles around the elbow to enhance the strike. Similar to the full twist punch ,much debated on other threads, the primary effect is to strengthen the striking tool and prevent any dissipation of power rebounding into a weak structure. A secondary value is that it permits a quick follow up strike with a "leopard fist."
I have little kobudo training, significantly more Uechi Ryu and over thirty years of Goju. It would not be proper to say that Goju katas teach groundfighting per se, but the katas include close contact with arm bars and breaks, unbalancing and hard takedowns. A strong grip is vital and is evidenced by the open hand techniques displayed in the katas. They are for gripping the opponent, not a weapon.
I have heard my sensei (who has over 40 years of kobudo, his formative years as a close student of Matayoshi Sensei) observe that kobudo evolved from adapting karate like body dynamics and enhancing range and power by using weapons and implements that worked as weapons. Nathan seems to have the relationship exactly backwards.
Innovative ideas and intuitive leaps are fine and to be commended, but they need to be checked out by more than book and internet research. Some training with those with decades of experience in kobudo and Okinawan karate would have saved a lot of embarrassment for Nathan and his adherents.

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#296448 - 11/21/06 09:31 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Can you recommend anyone in the Birmingham area?


Can't say I can...besides, I'm not a Kobudoka - but I'm around it. At less than 8 hours of training a week, the empty hand material keeps me busy and engaged enough - my limitation that I've come to terms with - maybe someday, but not now. It's too bad, people feel sufficiantly lost, that they feel the need to absorb every new theory that hits the market. There are a few on here that are very lucky to have/had the instruction they do/did. I enjoy having discussions with them lots more than the uninitiated bandwagoning mass-consumers of MA.

as far as the other questions/comments that were directed toward me...they don't warrent a response.

it's clear no technical discussion will come of this, given the obvious uneven backgrounds of sides to the argument.

In years to come Nathan will once again change his theory. Personal journeys happen that way in varying less-public extremes. Some seek long, trusted and in-depth guidance from those who went before, some attempt to go it on their own. Whether he is aware of it or not, Nathan is documenting his journey in the form of publication...he's sharing his path and collecting from the followers along the way. I don't judge that course, and since he's no doubt a nice person, there will always be those who follow him.

The personal question his students need to ask themselves: how far will you follow his current state? will you be doing Uechi Sanchin with sai 6 years from now even if Nathan goes on to completely different and other things? or will you branch off as Martin did with Ryoute? sort of left 'high and dry' trying to make the older theories work for you as a base to support your own theories?

how many 'Zen Shorin karate' practictioners are there still today? any? and thats just 12 years (or 2 theories) ago.

Test of time. If Kodo ryu is still around in 6 years, I'll read the book. turns out, I saved alot of time/money by waiting for 'barefoot zen' to mature. It's matured into a dead and well debunked theory.

In any event, may everyone be happy.

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#296449 - 11/21/06 09:54 PM Re: Kodoryu [Re: nahate]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hi Ken, glad you joined the thread. Of course! Leopard fist! I didn't recognize it at first from Uechi's photo since the setup looks different than Goju...but yup, there it is. I thought it was called 'bear claw'. but the hand-form appears in Goju's Saifa as you know....strike to the neck with secondary finger knuckles using a circular path (the stylized version of saifa often shows/explains this as double straight punch strike to the base of the neck)....Uechi's 'leopard fist' is just more like knocking on a door. by itself, not a particularly dangerous looking strike, but just after an elbow to the chin...rapping them on the face (or I suppose neck) to followup makes perfect sense. kindof like a reverse-hand Uraken.

thanks for adding that. most I've learned all thread. lol

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#296450 - 11/22/06 02:26 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: gaugustcrane]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

If we can't spell names properly this is going to be a crap discussion. A

Top pictre please. Right hand. And any reasons why he performs this hand position would be welcomed.

Thanks.




Sure I can explain this "loose fist" interpretation. In order to get more bone contact with an upper elbow strike versus a muscle padded olecranon process (elbow point), the fist can be kept relaxed which keeps the muscle of the medial forearm from padding the ulna/elbow. The other hand is used to grab the lapel or shirt in order to bring uke into the strike. It's very common in Okinawan karate to pull your opponent into your strike.

The Sai is held one way in Okinawan kobudo regardless of ryu/ryuha. If you have ever manipulated the Sai this grip makes perfect sense. If you have never done Okinawan karate or at the least a style with sound fundamentals then what I'm saying may seem like conjecture, but those of us who have trained for decades in Okinawan karate know that what I speak of is pure truth. There is no opinion in this instance. That's just how it is.

Again I'll ask you and Nate if he wants to answer, what rank is this cat and by whom was he graded a yudansha? I really have nothing against the guy. I don't doubt he knows some karate. The question is at what level and what style? It really does make a difference, because contrary to popular OPINION not all styles hold the same merit. Some ryuha and sensei/shinshi just understand and can convey real techs against resisting opponent AND can describe what bunkai really is. This analysis and teaching method is not something that Nate needs to reinvent. It's already there and present in a myriad of styles and dojo.

This guy is taking advantage of the fact that karate in Europe is on an even lower level than the karate stateside. You guys in Britain are always tring to reinevent the wheel, even moreso than the guys here who usually just do what their taught and continue with bad habits and lack of knowledge. Instead of you English guys going and learning from a qualified Okinawan yudansha you just want to hope your way through it. Bad form. You must have a solid foundation in order to even begin to try and make up your own karate system. 6th dan is probably the minimum and you won't reach that rank before 45-50 if you do a real style.

Nate will not teach most of us on here a thing. He will succeed in us viewing him as another fly-by-night gendai budoist.Think about it--- he knows more about the system he was a beginner in, in a dojo that didn't probably know how to interpret the kata they trained in, than the guys who created the style(s)? The initiated see through the ruse.

We understand that he is teaching based on some knowledge and a lot of gimmick. Trust us, why would WE need to lie to you? To keep you as one of our fold?! Hahahaha, think about it and don't be such a follower.

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#296451 - 11/22/06 04:28 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: Unsu]
gaugustcrane Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Belgium
Right gents,
seeing as this is now becoming a question of America versus the low level of karate in Europe and Britain, I think it's time to bow out until some of you actually study what has been put out there by Johnson.
Of course the fact that everything is better in the States was a point I overlooked. Just like when America wins the world baseball series every time. No surprise, as there are no other teams.


Yes, you can have the monopoly on all your kata because you spoke to the Okinawans and they must be right.
You are trying to fit kata into take downs and ground asaults. It's not what your original masters intended to my mind and it doesn't work unless you bastardise the kata as some clubs do.


Just like the Japanese were right about Naihanchin until Zen Shaolin Karate.

And to be honnest, few of you will ever view this open-mindedly, so there is little point discussing this.

Thanks to those who explained increased power for an elbow strike from the Uechi picture. I don't believe it for a minute but if it floats your boat.
And a grab to the lapel afterwards? Was that a joke?
Increased muscle power in the forearm by cocking your wrist, raising your little finger and index? Nice idea. Perhaps they should use that in the ultimate fight to punch or grab someone. Great stuff. Or a Goju punch at slow speed to the groin.
Perhaps then we can use Rokushu to "paint the fence", or "wax on" when cleaning the car. Just before you "stomp" with it, Daniel san.

I say we all get back to our own styles; afterall that's what we each enjoy.
We all think we are right or the other wrong. So, let's agree to disagree.

Cheers, boys.

And not reaching 6th dan until you're 45/50? What a laugh. The Japanese added loads of belts to keep the students training longer. It's politics and marketing. Europe saw that ages ago. Who would want their greatest export quickly perfected by Westerners? Business would not last long.
Like belts for kids. And no room for free thinking.All in line, one direction, one leader, no questions.
I guess some aspects of Okinawan or Japanese culture were not really a good idea to adopt. "Martial" arts, indeed.

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#296452 - 11/22/06 06:08 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: gaugustcrane]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Gaugustcrane,

I give you an eye witness (from an interview), somebody that actually trained with Higashiaonna states he changed from open hand to closed fist and you state that Miyagi closed the fists without any explanation. Do you have any reference to your statement wich makes this believable ?

Let's put the focus on tensho for a while then. You catagorize it as rokushu/tensho. Why also rokushu ? Was tensho not a proper name for it in how you exercise it ? Is it different from the goju execution ?
Tensho means 'rotating palms' and indeed has a lot of tuite/china in it, if you want it to be like that. It can also be used as soft slapping or hitting with palm or fingertips. We use it primarely as cool down kata, to regulate breath and chi and calm the mind at the end of the training. That's why it's called closed hand kata (heishu kata). It has a different purpose as the application of technique (kaishu kata, open hand kata).
As far as I understand it, Gokenki assisted him in the creation of the kata tensho based on the rokushu kata he thaught and based on experiences he had in China during his first 2 visits. Although based on the rokushu kata it is not the rokushu kata. If you have different info I would like to hear it.

Quote:

The Japanese added loads of belts to keep the students training longer. It's politics and marketing. Europe saw that ages ago. Who would want their greatest export quickly perfected by Westerners? Business would not last long.




What a blunt statement. I trained in Japan for a month and had to pay about 75euro for the entire month to chip in for rent on the dojo where we slept ate and trained. Whenever I go to a siminar in Europe (with or without Japanese masters) I usualy have to pay about 30euro a day just for a 2 or 4 hour seminar.
Training your entire life searching for your own limits together with friends more or less knowledgable is the ultimate goal of training imo. It has nothing to do with the grade you obtain. Recognition of that grade and putting value behind it, is only to the one who distributes the grade and to the one who aknowledges it. It has zero value in these debates/forums.

Unsu,
Quote:

This guy is taking advantage of the fact that karate in Europe is on an even lower level than the karate stateside.



And you base that on what ? Your own ego ?


Edited by CVV (11/22/06 06:22 AM)

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#296453 - 11/22/06 07:30 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: gaugustcrane]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I'll give you a tip, so you can walk away from the thread with perhaps something tangable.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Uechi-Ryu-OKINAWA-KA...8QQcmdZViewItem
that is NOT the blue book, btw.

Uechi's "blue book". is a difficult book to get your hands on (It'll run you well over USD $1000), much less an English translation of it - of which does exist but is not published and only available in small circles as far as I know. don't ask me how to get one...I'll tell you e-bay. I have had the pleasure of reading it. I'm not an Uechi stylist, but I would think this would be required reading prior to guessing what their kata is for...it certainly fills alot of voids and bridges gaps between other Okinawan traditional styles.

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#296454 - 11/22/06 07:56 AM Re: Kodoryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hyo boxer (leopard boxer) - the leopard is one of the 5 animal styles.

partial English translation from the blue book:
Quote:

The original Boxer
for the leopard was based on the four knuckle fingers and the first finger of each hand using the
thumb as a brace. The energy around the strike was based behind the knuckles. When one
trained using this strike it was used as an oblique block. The strike was followed by a short quick
emission thru the lips. It was thought that this was excess energy, which came after the strike
and could to be used later. During the strike the posture was also important the feet were half
moon shaped for maximum energy dispersion during and after the strike.



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