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#295925 - 11/03/06 11:00 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: PrimeUniversa69]
ichibyoshi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 10
The movements may take less than a year to master (although if you have a teacher who has been practicing for a while longer than you, s/he is sure to see things in your "mastery" that require fixing).

But the mental ability to apply those techniques under real pressure is another thing. And the ability to apply them consistently under pressure, to "win" over and over again, is what takes time.

In kendo, we would say the ability to have "fudoshin", immovable mind or spirit, is what you train years for. The movements themselves are easy. Being effective ALL the time is not.

In my experience, there is usually a strong correlation between years spent training (so long as it's regular, intensive training) and effectiveness. IOW your seniors will usually know what you're about to do because when they were at your level, it's the kind of thing they would have done in that same situation. You, on the other hand, may not see what they are planning, because you don't yet know what they know. Their view from the mountain road on which you both are travelling encompasses more because they have reached slightly higher ground.

b

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#295926 - 11/13/06 01:19 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: ichibyoshi]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Quote:

But the mental ability to apply those techniques under real pressure is another thing. And the ability to apply them consistently under pressure, to "win" over and over again, is what takes time.

In kendo, we would say the ability to have "fudoshin", immovable mind or spirit, is what you train years for. The movements themselves are easy. Being effective ALL the time is not.





would "fudoshin" be similar to "zanshin" if your familiar with the term? (MJER's Flashing Steel is my reference of the word and its a difficult concept for me to fully understand due to my lack of experience and inability to currently train my mind in such a way.)
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#295927 - 11/13/06 03:30 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

I know what a sword is and its capabilities.
its apparent to me that the strength lies not in the power but the light weight and speed. As would be the same as epee, and other arts and swords.



In the case of a genuine shinken, the cutting ability lies in the incredible edge. All that is required is the skill to deliver this edge properly.

One does not sharpen a shinken. One hires a highly skilled professional to polish it.

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#295928 - 11/13/06 04:26 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: fatguy]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:


would "fudoshin" be similar to "zanshin" if your familiar with the term? (MJER's Flashing Steel is my reference of the word and its a difficult concept for me to fully understand due to my lack of experience and inability to currently train my mind in such a way.)



Nope.
Zanshin is awareness of surroundings. Sometimes referred to as "lingering awareness" within Japanese sword arts circles. It is the ability to be aware of all around you even though you've defeated the (apparent) enemy. Fudoshin is most often discussed as "immovable mind". It is the ability to deal effectively in any situation and not have anything cause undue distress or surprise. A really good example of fudoshin is in an article written several years ago in Furyu by Stephan Fabian ... http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue9/fudoshin.html
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#295929 - 11/14/06 12:13 AM Re: Ten years? [Re: iaibear]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Quote:

Quote:

I know what a sword is and its capabilities.
its apparent to me that the strength lies not in the power but the light weight and speed. As would be the same as epee, and other arts and swords.




All that is required is the skill to deliver this edge properly.





Isnt that true of any bladed weapon?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#295930 - 11/14/06 10:18 AM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:



Quote:

All that is required is the skill to deliver this edge properly.




Isnt that true of any bladed weapon?





sigh

Well, Charles Mahan, you can't say I didn't try.

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#295931 - 11/14/06 05:12 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: iaibear]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Is it not? Perhaps I missed your point. I thought that sword fighting was about slicing and stabbing the opponent while keeping him from doing the same thing.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#295932 - 11/14/06 06:07 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Is it not? Perhaps I missed your point. I thought that sword fighting was about slicing and stabbing the opponent while keeping him from doing the same thing.




At an extremely basic level yes. But caution should be used when drawing comparisons based on such a superficial assertion. The same logic could be used to equate a plastic surgeon with a tailor. They both cut and sew, so the skill set must transfer from one to the other right? Not really.


Edited by Charles Mahan (11/14/06 06:09 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#295933 - 11/14/06 09:41 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I understand your point, however, how does that relate to the current conversation? Obviosly a taylor and a surgeon are miles apart, but we arent talking about saving the opponent, we are talking about destroying him and to me that would require less on the part of the destroyer.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#295934 - 11/14/06 10:14 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Obviosly a taylor and a surgeon are miles apart, but we arent talking about saving the opponent




That's kinda my point about knives and swords.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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