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#295905 - 10/26/06 12:52 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Chen

Even given the very real effecctivenss of a knife--you probably know just how far a guy can stand and still get to you with a knife before you can draw and fire--I would still rather have a gun.

Plus I live where thay allow concealed carry of firearms, don't think they feel the same about fighting knives.

If were talking about "real" self-defense, then the gun is the better option.

(assumeing of course that you actually train with it--although at close range, even that might not be all that needed.)

Plus, we have pretty much already established--several times now--that if "practical" self-defense is what your after, then a JSA or sword art in general should NOT be anyones first choice.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#295906 - 10/26/06 01:11 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I know all that CXT. I would rather have the gun too. i carry one at times. I simply asked about a knife because it is more realistic than a sword, and more common than a gun. Not everyone carries a pistol. Some only have knives. I work with a knife everyday and I dont carry a gun everyday. Also i think the priciples of a knife and sword are similar. And I know that JSA shouldnt be the first choice for self defense. i didnt imply that it should be.
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#295907 - 10/26/06 01:29 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Having never trained in knife fighting I can't say for sure, but I suspect the principles are VERY different. The considerably shorter reach would make for very different fundamental principles in terms of footwork, application of power, targeting, distance management, grappling applications, etc ad nauseum. I can cut an arm off with a sword, but the same attack with a knife might inflict only superficial damage. Again escrima or a dedicated knife fighting school would probably be a better use of your time than a sword school of JSA or CMA(Chinese martial arts) origins.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#295908 - 10/26/06 01:33 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Chen

I sure that you did know it---its why I said you did.

I agree Charles, I don't a lot of "carry over" between knives and swords.
Maybe some in the body movement and footwork, reflexs, stuff like that.

But directly, not sure that much does.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#295909 - 10/26/06 01:44 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Loc: Ms
Why not? what is sword fighting? hook, uppercut, jab. Slice thrust stab. The only difference in my eyes would be length in which case there would be higher emphasis on timing and footwork.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#295910 - 10/26/06 02:22 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Chen

Well for one thing the maai is vastly different.

To keep with the analogy, you'd be training and practicing to throw your "hook punch" 2 feet from your oppt.

Some people claim that as a weapon is just an extention of the body, expertise in one gives skill in the other.

They are not wrong exactly---just less than accurate IMO-ONLY.

To my mind a given weapon has its own handleing characterics and its used to best effect when its used by people that know and understand why X is used like it is.

Sure skilled folks can transfer Y to X, a epee fighter can probably use a saber rather effectivley.

Its just its properly used much differently--and a guy/gal trained how to use it "correctly" will always have an edge on someone "winging it" so to speak.

I CAN use a knife with the same series of cuts, stabs, footwork, body movement that I would with say a saber or katana--more or less.

But maybe I'm not doing it right?

Maybe I'm doing sonmething really stupid?

So if I wanted to learn how to knife fight--I would seek out a qualified knife expert to teach me.

One thing that I learned over the years, is that it really does not matter if people are talking MA or plumbing, or car repair--whatever etc.

Proper instruction, from qualifed pros, and using the right tools for the job save MAJOR headaches/problems/money/blood etc later.

Nothing much is a "sure thing" of course.


Edited by cxt (10/26/06 02:27 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#295911 - 10/26/06 02:31 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The maai? Lost me. You'll have to explain that one.

You put up a good argument otherwise. I always appreciate that, especially when it can be done in a friendly exchange.

Im one of those people that believe that empty hand can cross over to armed forms of fighting. However, I dont believe the opposite. I dont believe that just because you can handle a sword you can box. I think the hand skills while unarmed lay the foundation in which weapons training is formed. With that being the case, one could say that hand skills are the basics of weapons fighting. To me the best fighter is one who can use the basics the most effectively. Not necessarily the specialist.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#295912 - 10/26/06 02:39 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Why not? what is sword fighting? hook, uppercut, jab. Slice thrust stab. The only difference in my eyes would be length in which case there would be higher emphasis on timing and footwork.




It's not the same thing at all, and without a few years to give you a basic understanding of how swords work I don't think I'll be able to get the point across completely. It boils down to the fact that sword fights are VERY VERY different in several key ways. Keep in mind I am coming at this from a very particular point of view, that of the style I have trained in. Your mileage may vary.

First and foremost, even more important than things like footwork, distance, timing, application of power, etc, are the stakes. The stakes in a sword fight are as high as they can possibly be. The tiniest mistake and you die. No ifs. No ands. No butts. No do overs. No flubs. No bruises. No maybe next times. Not even the slightest chance that after kicking your butt your opponent might decide you're not worth killing. You're dead. End of story. That reality fundamentally changes the nature of a conflict between two trained individuals with swords. You have to be both more aggressive and more conservative at the same time.

Then come the technical aspects. Stances that make a lot of sense in unarmed, or perhaps with a knife, might not make a lot of sense with a sword. Swords are all about application of power in a very particular direction. My stances tend to be very deep and very focused towards my enemy. Any change to the stance to make it more mobile or more stable in another direction, takes away from the power of the cut. Which is fine as long as you are willing to make that sacrifice. I am not. The stance I use normally with a sword would not make a lot of sense with a knife or unarmed. I can't generate the same kind of force with a knife that I can with a sword. It's about more than just reach. Leverage enters into the equation. A two handed grip changes things. A style and weapon focused largely on cuts changes things.

A sword is as much like a knife as a spear is. They've all got pointy ends and edges and that's about all that is common between them.

I can't imagine what a hook or an uppercut would look like with a sword. Seems like you'd give up an awful lot of reach trying something like that and a competent swordsman is never going to let you get close enough to try it.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#295913 - 10/26/06 02:45 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

The maai? Lost me. You'll have to explain that one.





Translates roughly to distance, or distance management/manipulation.

Quote:


Im one of those people that believe that empty hand can cross over to armed forms of fighting.





Good for you. May I ask what armed fighting forms you have experience in that allows you to draw such a conclusion?

Quote:

With that being the case, one could say that hand skills are the basics of weapons fighting.




You'll need to be more specific here. "Weapons fighting" is a ridiculously broad category of fighting styles. What could a good foundation in boxing possibly teach you about the particulars of archery, rapier fencing, jo, bo, or even sword for that matter. There might be some basic elements of general awareness, but the details(you know the important stuff?) are all specific to each weapon and fighting environment.

Quote:

To me the best fighter is one who can use the basics the most effectively. Not necessarily the specialist.




Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion. I think the best fighter is the one with his finger on the button. Aint nobody beating him at anything.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#295914 - 10/26/06 02:52 PM Re: Ten years? [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Chen

Sorry maai "combative distance" (more or less)

I don't think your wrong---just don't 100% agree.

If your talking weapons, the smart monies on the "specialist."

Not ALWAYS or course---just how I would be betting.


Edited by cxt (10/26/06 02:55 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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