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#295696 - 10/25/06 12:42 AM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Lucid Warrior Steve:

Much to ponder, much to digest before forming the next line of questions per se....

Regardless my thanks for your effort & those of others on this challenging-difficult subject...

Are there particular arts, or subsets of arts which members feel articulates these particular ideas meaningfully well, and likewise coherently (sic in English )

Jeff

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#295697 - 10/25/06 10:40 AM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Ronin1966]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Hello:

I am looking for coherent & articulate explaination of 5 element theory as pertains specifically to Martial Arts practice, and or particular specific arts.

However I have a few basic criteria... The explaination CANNOT be cyclical. They should not be mysterious. They need to be in English! I am NOT seeking chinese cosmology in place of discussion/explaination. "...the yin/yang element of Tao which is described by the yang elements of the 5 element theory..."




Weeeellll usually if you go to books or a web forum that is what you will get. You really need to find an instructor who can show you the subtleties of five element fighting concepts but I will try

In xingyiquan there are five fists (or forces) which correspond to the five elements:
Metal(Pi) - Splitting , Like an axe chopping up and over.
Fire(Pao) - Pounding, Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.
Water(Zuan) - Drilling, Drilling forward horizontaly like a geyser.
Earth(Heng) - Crossing, Crossing the line of attack while turning over.
Wood(Beng) - Crushing, constantly exploding forward.


These principles (and movements) are used in the following manner..

One assumes a possibility of three outcomes constructive, neutral and destructive. This follows five element theory of the cycles of the same name.


Pi quan is used to defeat (destroy) Beng energy.

Pao quan is used to defeat (destroy) Pi energy.

Zuan quan is used to defeat (destroy) Pao energy.

these are example of the destructive cycle which tends to be more yang in nature, there also the use of the constructive (I like to use term regulatory, it is a better description of what is happening)which moves the incoming energy in a desired manner and direction and the cuts its head off.

It is these subtleties and intracacies that are learned from a good xingyi instructor. The Hung brothers were some of the best. Of course each of the fists contain properties of other elements and the animals are extensions of the elements.

These are things that must be shown and not read about, but I think that you can get and idea from this.

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#295698 - 10/25/06 02:01 PM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Kempoman]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
Kempoman, thanks for xingyiquan context. Probably a little closer to what he was looking for.

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#295699 - 10/26/06 09:57 AM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Kempoman]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Hi Kempoman,

Quote:

Of course each of the fists contain properties of other elements...




That being said, do you think that this is what makes up the creation cycle?
Example: Pao chuan contains some 'elements' beng chuan and this is why you can see similar energies in the forward hitting fist?
Maybe this is why the linkage forms flow so well together? One element flows through one transitional phase to the next element either creating or destroying.
I know that the animals are related to specific elements, do you think that the transitional phase between elements is where the animals come from?
Just curious, I do know the Hebei Xingyiquan 5-elements and their likages via the Hung lineage, I am not all that familiar with that many of the animals though. I primarily focus on the bagua stuff.
I have heard that some of the post-heaven bagua that Hung Yi Xiang taught was actually xingyi animals though, so mabey I know more of the animals than I think.

Good discussion!
Chris
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#295700 - 10/26/06 11:45 AM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Fisherman]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Hi Kempoman,

Quote:

Of course each of the fists contain properties of other elements...




That being said, do you think that this is what makes up the creation cycle?
Example: Pao chuan contains some 'elements' beng chuan and this is why you can see similar energies in the forward hitting fist?
Maybe this is why the linkage forms flow so well together? One element flows through one transitional phase to the next element either creating or destroying.
I know that the animals are related to specific elements, do you think that the transitional phase between elements is where the animals come from?
Just curious, I do know the Hebei Xingyiquan 5-elements and their likages via the Hung lineage, I am not all that familiar with that many of the animals though. I primarily focus on the bagua stuff.
I have heard that some of the post-heaven bagua that Hung Yi Xiang taught was actually xingyi animals though, so mabey I know more of the animals than I think.

Good discussion!
Chris




Chris,

Well, we're really gettin' down to the nut-cuttin' here.

Here is what I have learned and distilled from the last ten years of focusing on xingyiquan.

There are five forces, powers, energies in xingyiquan (of course there are two sides to each).

When done correctly each force is very powerful in an of itself, but combining them using the five element cycles is
where the devastating power that xingyi is famous for comes from.

The linking form is key in this process as is An shen pao(the two man set).

These however are only examples of "how" to combine them. This is the key difference between someone who teaches the techniques of xingyi and
someone who teaches actual xingyi.

Learning and internalizing how these five forces blend and change into one another is the key to xingyiquan. It is my assertion that this is the
purpose of progression from the five fists to linking form to ba shi to the animals forms. That said these are just examples the key is understanding
the transition from one to another and back again much like playing the guitar. Think of it like single chords vs learning chord progression.

Thoughts?

-KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#295701 - 10/26/06 08:23 PM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Kempoman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

That said these are just examples the key is understanding
the transition from one to another and back again much like playing the guitar. Think of it like single chords vs learning chord progression.





That's a really nice way of putting it....

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#295702 - 10/28/06 10:43 AM Re: 5 Element Theory re: Martial Arts! [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
excellent posting Lucid and Kempoman! just one thing to add not in explaining the theory, since I don't have the experience with this to add anything that hasn't been covered. but I will comment on a common trapping when studying a theory such as this.

martial arts theories, particularly very old Chinese ways of explaining things are largely symbolic - but the symbolism connects to very real life principles. THAT connection can only be made by years of being shown and doing.

the trapping is in thinking the symbolism is mumbo-jumbo with perhaps irrelavent spiritual leanings...but it often shouldn't be dismissed as irrelavent so quickly. when you think about it...how else WOULD we describe complex things our body just learns by physical experience and knowledge? the symbolism serves as a guide without geting bogged down in overly-complex technicalities. abstract thinking over logical mind. even the word 'theory' is a misnomer and immediately traps a western mind into a mindset of logic-heavy critical thought.

the trapping of such theories can tip the other way just as well...when we look at the symbolism as ALL spiritual meaning with little to no connection with the physical.

I've found I have to try really hard to try and balance out the abstract vs. logical mindset when learning about things like this...it really is difficult for someone growing up with logical hardwiring to reprogram their circuits - but I'm picking away at it. learning can't be passive, we really have to work at it.

sorry if the post went off-topic...just a side-note to perhaps help the android people like me reading this thread.

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