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#295611 - 10/23/06 07:17 AM Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai)
Snakeineaglesnes Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
Hello everyone. Just want to introduce myself, you can call me eagle. I've been doing eagleclaw Kung fu for over 9 years, My instructor has studied eagleclaw for over 38 years. I'm just wondering if there is anyone else out there who studied Eagleclaw for a long time in order to exchange thoughts. I've only met two eagleclaw kung fu practitioners since I began training. Sifu & his son. Everyone is welcome to talk about techniques etc.

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#295612 - 10/23/06 07:26 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Where do you train eagle claw?
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#295613 - 10/23/06 08:20 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi,

I've had a little experience in Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai. I started studying Yang Tai Chi with Ernest Rothrock Laoshi about 30 years ago, and along the way studied a bit of various Chinese systems from him to learn more about the Chinese arts.

He shared Hon Kuen with me many years ago as well as various studies in the Eagle Claw principles and applications.

I'm not an Eagle Claw stylist, but appreciate the depth of the system.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295614 - 10/23/06 10:33 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Your Sifu has no other students except you and his son?

I have great respect for YJ stylists. Though I don't do it specifically, I've don't some finger/thumb conditioning to get that Eagle grip, such as hanging around with just the index and middle fingers and thumb push-ups. What does your system do to get the Eagle grip?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#295615 - 10/24/06 08:03 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
ButterflyPalm,

As likely the world's only Ying Jow Pai hobbiest, I'd like to give you my insructors answer on the greatest tool to craft the Eagle grip.

While there are various training aids, he feels the most important tool to develop the grip is decades of work on the forms, each time performing each claw in those forms with the correct positioning and grip.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295616 - 10/24/06 09:29 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Yeah, but not the way the Wu Shu people do it these days. They do it so fast, there is really no time (or perhaps no intention) to form and execute the grip properly and put 'bite' into it.

One way Wu Shu is killing the Art. Same with the Tiger Claw, which should be done fairly slow with full sinew twisting power from the shoulders to the claw.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#295617 - 10/24/06 11:26 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I doubt that WuShu is killing Northern Eagle Claw, those forms are based on other Chinese Eagle traditions, IMO.

In fact Shum and his instructors (from Hong Kong) traveled to China looking for other Ying Jow Pai, and they found no trace of it. It is likely when it was 'exported' to Hong Kong and Jing Wu it left China, at least as far as any traced remain.

Today in Hong Kong, there is no formal group studying the art. Apprently it is too time consuming (takes decades) and everyone has to work too hard at their jobs.

In NYC Shum Leung has retired, and there are schools there and through my instructor in Pittsburgh and a few other locations.

Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai may just be to complex to survive. It took my instructor over 25 years to get all of it. Will others spend that time, and will the resources be available if they wish to do so?

A very practical, elegant, complex tradition, that may well be disappearing.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295618 - 10/24/06 10:56 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

A very practical, elegant, complex tradition, that may well be disappearing.




Sad really as it is one of the oldest and rather intimidating styles which goes for the jugular, literally. In a way the old practitioners were to blame because I remembered in the old days it was a very secretive style and not shown often in public over here. Now I hardly hear of them anymore.

If it is to survive, it has to make some compromising. Cut it down and just retain the essence of the art. Integrate all the lengthy forms into something more manageable. Come up with a coherent, graded syllabus. The problem is those who know the whole art are probably too old to bother and maybe felt that tampering with centuries old traditions is sacrilegious.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#295619 - 10/25/06 02:47 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Snakeineaglesnes Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
Both of you have made some interesting points. The style is deffinately one of the rarest style out there. My sifu's Instructor was a very wise old(but powerful from the stories I've heard)man. He taught my instructor defferently. My instructor was taught to break everything, even while defending. He has officially mastered that. His sifu said that when your an old man you cant try to keep up with the youth, youth is a precious thing.(Break everything). I believe the eagleclaw out there isn't really like that anymore. Watered down Maybe? dont know. but thats the point im getting to I rather lose a style before seeing it watered down. My instructor was an only student training traditionaly 6 hours a day in the islands everyday. Even when his instructor stayed in the house, Pure dedication. Thoughts apprecieted.

For the grip training I believe in the longevity training as well. for those that are in a rush I train with a dumb bell edge(grip vigorously and release). This Shum guy sounds like In interesting Sufu. (sounds alot like my instructor)except for my instructor still trains everyday 3 hours a day, runs 10 miles everymorning and lift weights for an hour.(crazy huh)

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#295620 - 10/25/06 06:53 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I rather lose a style before seeing it watered down.




You got me wrong. Cutting down does not have to mean watered down. In fact it can actually make it more effective.

When you cut down, you cut down on the peripheral matters and you retain and teach the essence of the art and the students get to the core of the art faster. Only people who have mastered everything can know what is the core and what are peripherals. In all chinese martial arts, some parts are meant for demonstrations and exhibitions.

Look at karate. Would you consider it an art that retains the core combat principles of its Chinese ancestry or a watered down Chinese art devoid of any progenic value?

I suppose arguments can be forwarded on both sides of the fence; But it is a compromise and certainly not perfect. I am in favour of saving the Eagle, even if it is in a Zoo.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#295621 - 10/25/06 08:40 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Snake,

It would be interesting in learning more about your instructors teachings. I have never heard Jing Jow Pai described as you have done so.

Shum Leung Sifu started sharing Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai in New York over 30 year ago. He taught both the Eagle Claw and Wu Tai Chi Chaun which were in his tradition from Jing Wu.

He created a series of Eagle Claw and Wu tai chi chaun videos through ESPY, and wrote several books on Eagle Claw for his students. Part of them were re-issued as Mastering Eagle Claw by Tuttle Press a few years ago and that work contains the first 30 sections of the 108 Locking Form two person set.


Edited by Victor Smith (10/25/06 08:50 AM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295622 - 10/25/06 09:54 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Snakeineaglesnes Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
I understand what your saying(now, Sorry). For instance, My sifu told me that when he was young he loved combat in everyway. Never really liked forms, so he concentrated on the fighting aspect of eagleclaw which in many ways I think made him a more effective fighter. He still learned the forms, but wasn't interested in learning them until he was more mature. Many people tell us that we fight like Eagleclaw fighters but we dont move like them. They've called us Hybrids (funny). It might be the fact that my sifu has improved the fighting aspect in everyway. Mastery of angles when moving, being there but so evasive (and offensive) that he's not there. Maybe, his just using the style correctly and people aren't use to seeing it.

The first two forms that are taught by my sifu are as follows.

1: White belt form - Not eagleclaw, just a basic form that consists of basic punches, kicks & stances he incorporated.
2: Five animal pattern form - Not eagleclaw, teaches you how to finess your movements and introduces kung fu to the practitioner.

eagleclaw training begins upon completion. I honestly think that the system has been cut down already. In our teaching There are 12 forms before mastery in our style. Which doesn't include the 108 locking techniques and The final exam which consists of everything brought together.(will explain if interested). So I do understand what you mean.

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#295623 - 10/25/06 10:54 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Snake,

In Shum Leung's tradition Eagle Claw is studied very differently.

First a beginner begins with the dozen or so basic Jwing Wu (Ching Wu and all spellings) forms, starting with Tam Tuie, Kung Le Kuen and even 2 person sets.

Only after them do the kuen (forms) of eagle claw begin and they have over 75 of them. Some are incredibly long (Hon Kuen, Lin Kuen and Eagle tames tiger) and complex.

There is also an extensive weapons tradition, a large part of which builds arm and finger strength as well as the subsidiary exercises.

You study the Eagle Claw principles into the many 2 person sets (there are two different 108 locking sets). The sets show how to set up an attack and then complete it with differnet locks.

From there they progress into eagle claw sparring, which allows any attacks at all, but is never conclued till a person is locked, and each round they must use an entirely different lock.

The Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai tradition, as I only have the slighest knowledge, is very complex and all of interrelates to form the complete eagle claw stylist as Shum Sifu taught it.

It appears your tradition is quite different.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295624 - 10/25/06 01:45 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Victor Smith]
Snakeineaglesnes Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
Indeed So. The Sparring is diffently the same. My Sifu makes us do stances for a year before we can even touch hands. I can understand the two 108 locking techniques because of the 8 years I've studied I learned more then 108 locking techniques. My Sifu emphisizes more in fighting techniques, Combat and Stances. For instance, deep Horse stances and transition training, Kicking from an incredibly low stance without rising(making for less reaction time). Its slow in the begining but after constant training blazing fast speed will accur. All our kicks are thrown from the same chamber position making it in readable,chamber position is 90* sideways so trapping can't occur. Combat oriented

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#295625 - 11/08/06 03:52 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Snakeineaglesnes]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
I have studied northern eagle as a young boy, not comlete forms but fist methods, I however am a instructor in a southern tempel art called tai liu chuan fa (tai liu translates out to king of birds) I am wondering how many of the princables are the same. for example in tai lui the eagle practioner never strikes with its feathers. meaning with a open hand a eagle will always strike with the "ridge hand" side and not the "knife hand" is this the same in northern eagle?

with much respect
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pain is joy

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#295626 - 11/08/06 06:44 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: tailiugug]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
tailiugug,

No Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai uses a very wide range of strikes, more an inclusive Chinese system than an exclusive system.

It's primary striking is done with fists, forearms, palms, from my experience, but I imagine almost evey sort of strike finds it place.

The main focus of the system is to set an opponent up for the claws/chin na/locks of eagle claw.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295627 - 11/12/06 08:32 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Victor Smith]
tailiugug Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Mr. Smith

I clearly did not express myself very well the southern eagle of tai lui has many strikes from a multitude of body parts and fist/ hand postures. with low kick and lots of locks, but each animal with in the system has certain standards and practices that helps each animal stand out. for example the bear is very powerfull a standard of the bear might be that it never blocks with its claws/hand instead it block/redirects by blending with the forearms/ elbows at the same time striking with it claws,palms often followed by double strikes to the midsection. each animals has mind sets that help the practitioner to transform into that animal. I am just wondering how many of these standards are the same between north and south.
_________________________
pain is joy

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#295628 - 11/12/06 08:59 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: tailiugug]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I remember one time when my friend/instructor was asked about that aspect of Northern Eagle Claw in particular and animal sets in general.

His position is the use of animal terminology is only symbolic. Physiologically it is impossible to perform a technique as an animal would. He felt the use of animal terminology was more a focus of one aspect of a systems training.

His back ground is Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai, Tai Tong Long, Sil Lum, Pai Lum, Yang Tai Chi Chaun and Wu Tai Chi Chaun, as well as many other training studies.

In my own studies I believe his answer makes sense.

Obviously others hold differing answers.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#295629 - 12/10/06 10:44 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: Victor Smith]
metempsychosis Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 12
Hi, I'm seriously considering learning ying jow pai eagle claw starting this summer and was wondering if you know if Leung Shum is still instructing in the NYC location or anywhere else in NY. Thanks, any info appreciated.

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#295630 - 12/25/06 12:19 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: metempsychosis]
TamTui Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5
Master Leung Shum drops by on some Saturdays at the current location where YJP trains. It is at Fighthouse, 122 West 27th Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10001. You can drop in on any of the days indicated at the official website (http://www.yingjowpai.com) or call Sifu Cecil Jordan at (212) 213-8805 to verify. You try a class on the first day you visit. Classes are $10 per class per day and there are no contracts so you have very little to lose. There is also a Chinese New Year celebration planned and I think it will be on Sunday February 18 at the Fighthouse location. There will be a lion dance and demos from YJP students and everyone who trains at Fighthouse. Call for details.

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#295631 - 01/04/07 01:50 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: TamTui]
metempsychosis Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 12
Thanks for the info, I'm glad the classes are cheap since travel to and from the city costs ridiculous money. I'll see if I can take off work to visit during the New Year's and will definently begin training this summer.

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#295632 - 01/08/07 05:22 PM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: metempsychosis]
SheathedSword Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1
Loc: NE PA
Hi All,
I'm new to these forums and thought id say hi.
I currently study eagle claw at Rothrock's Kung Fu & Tai Chi. I've been a student for almost a year now and pretty much have only been taught the basics. Its my understanding that you will only be shown the "good stuff" after you have put your time in.

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#295633 - 01/17/07 10:47 AM Re: Nothern Eagle Claw (Ying Jow pai) [Re: SheathedSword]
TamTui Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5
All schools and teachers have their own curriculums and perhaps you are progressing at a normal pace at your school. The basics you mentioned is a general term and may be comprised of different things than what is taught at other schools. In other words, your basics might be considered advanced in other schools. There's plenty of material to learn and if you're in your 20's or 30's you'll certainly get to the "good stuff". Keep in mind you'll discover when you learn so much, that you'll start to forget a lot of things that came before.

Quote:

Hi All,
I'm new to these forums and thought id say hi.
I currently study eagle claw at Rothrock's Kung Fu & Tai Chi. I've been a student for almost a year now and pretty much have only been taught the basics. Its my understanding that you will only be shown the "good stuff" after you have put your time in.



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