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#294800 - 10/19/06 10:24 AM Two 'schools' of karate
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
A little different post. Usually, we discuss the differences between Japanese/Okinawan, or Shorin/Shurei (sp?), or Traditional/nontraditional, or good/bad, or hard/soft. I'd like to explore the idea that there are really two schools of karate and they depend on the practicioner: good person karate and bad person karate.

If you think about it...karate is karate. It involves gruesome techniques...and can be quite...dirty...in it's applications. The only real difference...is the person.

'A true martial artist is gentle and humble'. What are your thoughts?

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#294801 - 10/19/06 11:46 AM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

I think part of that is true and hopefully good technique coupled with outstanding charcter happen to coincide. Unfortunately, the character part is the hardest to discern and may not be shown until some time later.

Technique, you can pretty well see right off the top. But I don't know...I can probably deal with an honest, irritating personality that has good skills than a person who is very kind and warm, but is still a crappy technician.

Now, I might want my kids to learn manners from the guy who is sweet and nice, but I would rather them get technical training from the individual who knows how to use those skills.

Also, depends on the rank of a-hole any individual rates on my scale. At a certain point, despite technique....a person is not worth hanging around if they are that much of a goof-up.

-B

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#294802 - 10/19/06 11:56 AM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sure...many are willing to say they have to 'take the good with the bad'. Personal gain, self-interest, 'optimizing strategies'...we find ways to justify training in less than perfect situations. But down the road? To be known as someone who trained under a person of poor character...it does count.


Quote:

At a certain point, despite technique....a person is not worth hanging around if they are that much of a goof-up



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#294803 - 10/19/06 12:03 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Not if he can punch you in the face better and faster than you can do it to him.... Partial joke, partial truth.

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#294804 - 10/19/06 12:14 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes...but this isn't a discussion of rationalizing training with 'good technicians with jerky personalities'. I mean...you learn so much technique...and then it becomes personal committment (to strength training, to increase performance, etc.).

One is, after all, judged by the company one keeps.

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#294805 - 10/19/06 12:25 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There is only one karate and it came from China... :P

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#294806 - 10/19/06 12:32 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You don't even do real karate...so be quiet.

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#294807 - 10/19/06 12:37 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Whilst I dont buy into the Saintly 'Budo' perfection side of things,

One thing I know for sure is that im only interested in 'good' character karate people, irrelevant of their skill or expeirence.

Bad manners, dishonesty, bully's, money grabbers - I have no time for whoever they are.

Im far from perfect of course but I try and present myself as openly and honest as posible and I expect the same.

The reality of it all is that most people are decent enough, the ones that arn't tend to do martial arts........

Only kidding
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#294808 - 10/19/06 12:43 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Ahhhh....'Budo'. Perhaps, the 'good person' school?

1. GI (Justice, Right Decision): Making correct decisions from the heart rather than from the mind. To die when one must without thought or regret.

2. YUU (Bravery): Rushing onto the point of a sword without hesitation if it would accomplish the greatest good.

3. JIN (Compassion, Benevolence): Universal love toward mankind. The ability to exhibit compassion.

4. REI (Right Action): Etiquette and the preservation of courtesy. The Samurai believed that it was better to lose his life than to be impolite.

5. MAKOTO (Truth, Sincerity): Truthfulness

6. MEIYO (Honor): Glory without ego.

7. CHUUGI (Devotion): Loyalty.

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#294809 - 10/19/06 12:50 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ah, I understand now. The Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid movies...style of karate.

I guess it all depends...but you're right, one shouldn't be involved with those whom show a blatant disregard for the civilities of life. On the other hand, people are people, and some martial artists are bad apples. I understand your point. A bad apple will ruin the whole barrel full.

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#294810 - 10/19/06 12:53 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA

Butterfly...your moniker belies your jaded POV.

Quote:

Ah, I understand now. The Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid movies...style of karate.




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#294811 - 10/19/06 12:59 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

<<What are your thoughts?

I can learn from a single eyebrowed, knuckle-scraping, hairy-palmed, sloping forehead, neanderthal who happens to be insane, a "dark person", a person with serious psychological-emotional problems. But I seek to learn from someone whom I can trust.

I contend and as I was taught people who are studying so they can actively-deliberately hurt someone... someone who studys so they can bully someone, folks with secret agendas, motives will be found out.

It is not that easy to hide them because the process of training takes time and close personal interactions with others studentts and teachers. Things come out/up.

A sad reality
J

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#294812 - 10/19/06 01:11 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
marvelos ideals, but massivly abused system in my mind, to this day.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#294813 - 10/19/06 01:11 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Harlan wrote 1. GI (Justice, Right Decision): Making correct decisions from the heart rather than from the mind. To die when one must without thought or regret.

2. YUU (Bravery): Rushing onto the point of a sword without hesitation if it would accomplish the greatest good.

3. JIN (Compassion, Benevolence): Universal love toward mankind. The ability to exhibit compassion.

4. REI (Right Action): Etiquette and the preservation of courtesy. The Samurai believed that it was better to lose his life than to be impolite.

5. MAKOTO (Truth, Sincerity): Truthfulness

6. MEIYO (Honor): Glory without ego.

7. CHUUGI (Devotion): Loyalty.


My reply sorry BrainS for not using the quote feature next time..

All thoughs values bring about this common thought. Maybe not that much since the taken out of bowing and mutual respect. Some schools teach don't respect me bc I'm your teacher, respect me bc I can whip your a$$. I don't think thats the proper meaning of respect maybe fear. Respect me bc I took the time out to teach you something I deem important.

Thats what we mean that Karate teaches more then just fighting. It teaches a higher morality, it teaches self worth and a Universal communion. But it also teaches the Ying and the Yang, Peace and War, Life and Death they are all part of one cycle.

I believe that you can have a fearsome warrior in a peaceful man, that has trained hard and he will have true technique and ethical manners.

I've seen poor & strong technical skill and fearsome teaching bring about effective street or tourney fighters but no outlook on how the world r society connects to them. Just winning is everything. But I guess it all what you want.

Didn't mean to get spaced out or sound creepy on you, but I do think complete Karate teaches more then just fighting.

Some Karate I venture to say most, teaches walk away if you can, you have the confidence to know you don't have to. A Coward run because he has to, a Warrior walks away because he wants to. Its all about judging is it worth it, looking at the big picture. It ain't about kicking a$$ all the time. Its about living right with less stress.

My 2 cent.


Edited by Neko456 (10/19/06 01:13 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#294814 - 10/19/06 01:25 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA


Quote:

Its about living right with less stress.



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#294815 - 10/19/06 01:33 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
"No matter how you may excel in the fighting traditions and in your scholastic endeavours, nothing is more important than your behaviour and your humanity as practiced in daily life."

Tejunsoku 17th century


Matsumura Shurite kun: Do not fight

sums it up nicely for me, taken from my teachers website -

http://rogersheldon.com/shurite/index.htm
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#294816 - 10/19/06 03:08 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'What are you learning...while you are learning?'

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#294817 - 10/19/06 04:04 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
unlearning.

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#294818 - 10/19/06 04:04 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
but when secure with your own choice of training, why worry about what the other people choose to do when you disagree with it?

I think the forums are a good way to screen out time-wasting 'look-n-see-n-say-hi' visits. If someone is a jaded, grumpy, a-hole. bad 'karate-budo'. bad mojo. bad karma. whatever you want to call that hate vibe. I don't care if he's got secret katas and the holy grail of chi power...I'm not wasting my time meeting with him to even say 'hi'.

similarly, I wouldn't waste my time with someone who is dishonest or in serious denial, who talks about 'th3 d34dly', but then puts a video up of him not even able to break thru a wet paper bag.

Then there are the outright frauds.

but yes, I think you right harlan...it does come down to the company we choose to associate with - and I'm happy to be associated with you and our study group.

don't let the grumps you run into online get you down. I look at it this way: If I don't respect someone and they insult me...how can that possibly have an effect on me?

also look on this bright side: thank gawd they aren't your teacher!

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#294819 - 10/19/06 04:12 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well...thanks for the support. I think?

You know that this thread is 'inspired' by a recent run in by some uncouth characters. But it highlights for me something that all the rightous 'traditionalists' focused on content or form are overlooking: it's about character.

Dammit...I'm not a sissy for pointing this out, or some wide-eyed naive youth. You know, if someone HAS to learn from a person of low character...then somewhere along the line...somebody screwed up by teaching that person.

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#294820 - 10/19/06 04:20 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
the best sparring instruction i've so far received was from a sociopath wacko who should stay far from my family at all times. but i may wander back to some nice karate folks who think bodhidarma invented it all, which is silly, just because they're such good people.

we learn from everybody? i think.
_________________________
http://www.newmag.org/

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#294821 - 10/19/06 04:25 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: eric235u]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sure...the possibility is there for each person to learn something from every encounter. But this is about karate.

I suppose, people stuck in duality, are going to continue to come up with arguments about why it's okay to learn good technique from jerks. My mundane response would be: why would you support and enable this line of instruction? By supporting this type of training, in effect one helps it to spread. It becomes a 'standard', and accepted.

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#294822 - 10/19/06 04:29 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yeah, grumpy, staunch karate traditionalists are an odd lot....wonder where all the hate comes from? not enough attention from sensei?

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#294823 - 10/19/06 04:36 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
"...good person karate and bad person karate.

If you think about it...karate is karate. It involves gruesome techniques...and can be quite...dirty...in it's applications. The only real difference...is the person..."

if Mr. Miyagi & the Cobra Kai instructor are of equal ability, as your original arguement suggests, then of course i vote for Miyagi. but if not...
_________________________
http://www.newmag.org/

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#294824 - 10/19/06 04:38 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: eric235u]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
sensei never loved me

_________________________
http://www.newmag.org/

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#294825 - 10/19/06 04:40 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

In this case, I think you have to disengage the instruction from the instructor. There are always bad representations of styles, technical and personality-wise. However, this does not say that the style itself or the merits of its education should be measured in the same basket as all its proponents.

Similarly, if the guy is a jerk, you can take what you can from him, and like a cat shoveling sand on excrement, leave with a nod of the head. And, let's not forget, there are levels to goofiness too. At some point you can tolerate certain actions, at others, you have to pick up your bags.

I still separate knowledge from the person teaching. But you are right, if things pass a level for me, I do stand my ground and refuse instruction despite its merits for the sake of my integrity by association. There are always shades of gray.

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#294826 - 10/19/06 04:48 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I disagree completely.

Quote:

Harlan,

In this case, I think you have to disengage the instruction from the instructor.



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#294827 - 10/19/06 04:59 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
"To be known as someone who trained under a person of poor character...it does count."

i prefer to stand on my own two feet (or at least try). but i think what Harlan says here is generally true for most people.

of course we don't know about a specific example, but if the guys a scumbag, put a beatin' on him and go your own way. no reason to waste time with a fool, but maybe nothing wrong with learning his tricks on your way out the door.

p.s. i see we're neighbors, don't come kick my ass just because we disagree. i just read an article about that actually happening in England!
_________________________
http://www.newmag.org/

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#294828 - 10/19/06 05:06 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Here's a clip of what got me 'deactivated' at a particular private forum:

The thread subject was traditions in karate. at one point (after I was being insulted), I decided to switch gears and ask very particular tradition questions which I already knew the answer to. just like clockwork, they responded with anger (since they obviously didn't know the particulars of their own traditions)....

title of the thread: "Protcol, Uniforms, and why do we do this stuff." (the thread was created by the Admin of that forum)

Admin:
Quote:

Ed, This isn't "20 questions." Let me refresh your memory: This is a forum largely peopled by senior martial artists in traditional ryu who wanted to have a place to talk shop. Most of us are beyond the level of questioning why we do things or what is tradition. We are comfortable with all that and are willing to accept the fact that there are different levels of tradition and dojo kun in the various ryu and kai. Our commonalities far outweigh our differences. Most of us are comfortable enough with ourselves and our arts not to get all upset over a few inconsistencies or unanswered questions. Are we going to spend our time trying to answer a bunch of stupid mudansha level questions from some disgruntled seeker...NO. So, in South Georgia talk, "If you don't want to run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. If you can't bite, don't bark."




me:
Quote:

fair enough Gene, it's your forum. I felt as though it was warented, so I did bite back...and tried to stay on topic while doing so.

If you really do feel our commonalities far outweigh our differences (which I very much agree with), then why are you and others so quick to judge?

and what's Rob's problem? his attitude doesn't get called on?

the atmosphere here seems to deter people from challenging others. challenging points of view IS part of what a forum is about....or a forum can just be a clubhouse of like-minded people, with the noobs throwing out softball questions and the experienced pating each other on the back.

I enjoy hearing honest criticsm, sometimes it's difficult to take...but if it's honest, I accept it. guesses and rush to judgements based on emotional reactions thru use of insults, reach me as humor at best. and believe me, I'm the first to laugh at myself...and without always needing a mirror, either. lol. nobody can insult me better and more cutting than myself.

so once again, appologies for the derailment. I think I'll follow Narda's lead and just pop in and read once in a while. I'm interested in where this thread will go. The irony of it's title "Protcol, Uniforms, and why do we do this stuff." , comparred to your statement: "Most of us are beyond the level of questioning why we do things or what is tradition." is actually pretty funny when you think about it.




Admin later responding to someone else:
Quote:

The issue is Ed's neurotic need to stir [censored]. Either that or he can't get his f**king mind around what this forum is about. If he keeps on he is about to join Harlan. f**k him.




me:
Quote:

Harlan asked to be taken off the forum...she wasn't kicked out, tough guy.

you crossed a line with me Gene.

please also remove my name from your 'forum'. Your online 'giri' speaks loud and clear of where you are in your angry, empty core.




I'd never in my lifetime bother to visit that person....either for a cup of coffee or for training. regardless of technical skill or whether or not he was picking up the coffee tab. lol

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#294829 - 10/19/06 06:01 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Blimey, did i miss all this???????

only joking.................................!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#294830 - 10/19/06 06:23 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: shoshinkan]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Not to laugh aloud but, hahahahah!

That's the same thing that happened with me at two sites with budo in the address. G "the White Possum" is a grumpy, know-it-all, Shito Ryu guy who has no clue and is not looking for one.

He (and sometimes RR) will get you kicked off a forum in half-a-second if they've never heard of you or if you "dare" to question his crotchetiness or lack of knowledge. Oh and his country fried arse is quite ignunt for a supposed Kyoshi level karate-ka.

RR can actually be cool at times. He knows my sensei and knows his brand of Okinawan Kenpo fairly well.

These guys don't need validation from any of us traditional karate poo-butts. They just want to garner favor with the more high profile martial artists, especially the MMA types. G is a jock rider to the nth degree.

He's one the cats that was saying I was some bald guy from W.Va. trying to break a board in this pic they were circulating.

Him and other guys from the SFA (a MMA group in So-Flo) and some wannabe karate dude from Palm Beach, really messed up a good mixture of points and counterpoints over at another forum.

Now that site sucks, they all got pretty much banned and migrated over to another forum.

These arses shouldn't "faze you" at all. They suck at what they do and they are stuck in this whole clique mentality.

They stick up for each other even when they're dead wrong.

There is even a Shorinkan guy there who is oblivious and lets them get away with being argumentative, use cuss words and just deride anyone who is not known to or questions them.

Mods on these sites have to be careful with being unfair like that.


Edited by shoshinkan (10/19/06 07:01 PM)

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#294831 - 10/19/06 06:59 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Ok a reminder to all -

Profanity, obscene language, insults, criticism of other arts, styles or individuals, or the impersonation of other individuals should be avoided in any Forum Submission. In addition, you may not upload to FightingArts.com, or distribute or otherwise publish through FightingArts.com, any Content or Submissions that are libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, threatening, abusive, illegal or otherwise objectionable, or that constitute or would encourage a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party, or otherwise give rise to liability or violate any law.

Lets keep things civil and relevant in this forum please guys and gals.


If you wish to talk 'stronger' then take it to pm.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#294832 - 10/19/06 07:18 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Unsu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

Nuff' Respect! lol

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#294833 - 10/19/06 07:39 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes, well...thanks for coming to my 'defense' Ed. Very gallant...but I would rather not give that forum any more exposure. I passed through, took the measure of the place...and kept moving. But it did give me pause to think.

Rampant egos, hostility, vulgarity, social climbing, back slapping...is that real karate? Dressed up in gi and marketed as 'traditional'? I have not heard a single negative story yet about Miyagi, or Gibo, or Higa, or Matayoshi...and I choose to associate with them.

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#294834 - 10/19/06 08:21 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

You don't even do real karate...so be quiet.




Um... remind me to tell Patrick McCarthy it ain't real karate when I see him.


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#294835 - 10/19/06 08:22 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I'll take it back if you introduce me to him.

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#294836 - 10/19/06 08:45 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You have to get yo a$$ down to Australia first. Patrick lives in Brisbane, but he travels a lot when he's on the seminar circuit.

Unfortunately, as you know, I'm moving from Brisbane in a couple of weeks... so I guess you're not taking it back then? :P

Back on topic....
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=220
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1521011


Edited by eyrie (10/19/06 08:48 PM)

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#294837 - 10/19/06 08:56 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'real' is a relative term thats over-rated.

I thought about this topic more and imagined if I had the choice between studying with someone that was a complete horror of a human being, but was an amazing technical teacher with incredible skill vs. studying on my own and having nothing to do with him.

...I can say with 100% conviction that I'd study on my own.

The gray area which butterfly mentioned, is according to individual tolerance. and I have a low tolerance for teachers with a bad attitude. makes me feel like I don't want what they have.

an analogy would be seeing a superb chef...who looks and smells like he never showers or grooms. I'll pass on the gourmet meal and opt eating at a place I trust can fill my stomach with a smile.

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#294838 - 10/19/06 09:10 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
The grey area is why we are in the boat we are in now.

Ronin pointed to something that is very important...trust. If we are shopping for techniques, divorced from ethics/integrity (yeah...that right ethics...it's not a dirty word) we are getting into a relationship with only part of our being. It's like love...it isn't halfway, it depends on trust and makes one vulnerable. But only in that environment does one grow as a human being, or experience profound change.

It's a personal choice...what kind of human being one wants to be...is the kind of training, and teachers that we choose to open ourselves to.

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#294839 - 10/19/06 09:55 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Hi all!!

Let me try and describe the personalities of two my instructors.

Dale is a hard man all around. He didn't take much from anyone and was very hard on us physically and mentally in class. I've known him since I was 8yrs old and he's always been this way. Sometimes he was almost eager to fight and had some trouble with the law...ok. He is like my second dad and would put his life on the line for me. He has made me a better martial artist in many different ways.

Randy is a good man,a family man and wouldn't want to say a harsh word to anyone. Dale always accused him of being to 'ju' (soft) and it worked both ways. He too is a very good personal friend and would lay his life on the line for me as well. I am a much better martial artist because of him too.

You take them both and you get an idea of where I am as a karate guy.
I think harlan was right on with her first post.I've seen the full spectrum of it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#294840 - 10/20/06 07:31 AM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sounds like it was at least in the right order! first learned Go, then learned Ju. ...then realized both.

harlan: There are a few priorities that come before, for me: Family-Health-Job-Happiness. As long as training doesn't serve counter-productive to these priorities, I train.

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#294841 - 10/20/06 10:40 AM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
BrianS thats a good analogy it sorta shows where you came from like your Sensei are somewhat parent figure building how you view the art, character and morals.

My Inital Instructors where different in many ways.

Sensei Tony was a private instructor he taught very informal and his real ambition was to be a singer. A very good fighter and a mixed martial artist back in the 70s. He was a lifer brat parents in the military and he was well traveled. He was only a Nidan. A small man in size but big in heart. He never talked about fighting but never backed down if threaten though he would try to walk away. If you didn't let him he'd drop ya.

Sensei Micheal was a one eyed ex-con that was a pretty good guy just raised in the wrong neighborhood and didn't hide from it. He was a product of his main instructor a hard man while training but down to earth outside the dojo. He seemed always be into a fights even though he looked like the type that you didn't mess with. A very powerful man he taught me many things about the art and fighting. One was never try to take advantage of the handicap, if you fought to his blind side he would beat you down. I never seen Mike Challenge anyone but he fought whoever want to no matter how big or strong, even the small he didn't lighten up. I had heard many stories about his Sensei, Rod Wilson, mostly that he was crazy. After taking me so far Mike formally introduced me to Sensei Wilson.

Sensei Wilson had been on the street since he was 13 bc of a broken family, he lived in the dojangs and dojos. He said that they saved his life and stopped him from being apart of the street life. He had lived around his Oriental teachers and cleaned up there dojo to make end meet. So he took their ways or the ways they let him see. In short Rod was crazy the weirdest test and blood was just a part of training. He Marshalled the MA in our area, charlatons were watched and challenge but never in front of their Class. The Challenge was to take off the 10th or 5th dan or prove it in a match, usually after watching his skilled they went back to Nidan or Sandan. This can get you sued now. His thoughts were that MAs are the knights of society and we should help socitey when ever we could. A strange man when U really got to know him. Crazy still. Admirable in the MA was his life. I do think he had a identiy crisis and some other emotional problems a nice guy but Crazy under a short microscope. He was not very well known outside of our state wasn't into Tournaments much.
Notice back in the day some people learned Karate to defend themselves not win trophies (Mike was into Competing beating up other BB regradless if he placed, or not)

Almost a novel sorry. I'm not concise like BrianS


Edited by Neko456 (10/20/06 10:47 AM)
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#294842 - 10/21/06 12:47 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
One thing that stuck with me that my iai jutsu sensei told me was "An evil soul begets an evil sword". This can be applied to any art. Anything labelled "martial" is going to require some level of discipline. In the army, we had "good" soldiers and "bad" ones...it's up to the individual to choose his own heiho. You can lead a horse to water....
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#294843 - 10/21/06 06:07 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: harlan]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:

The only real difference...is the person.






Forgive me, but this sounds like a variation on one of the most common and most of MA cliches: "It is the artist, not the art."

Hogwash.

As I have said elsewhere on this board, statements like this do not come from an honest, critical appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of various styles. Rather, it is a political statements designed to keep peace within the MA community.

Despite differences in skill, talent, and motivation among individual students, the fact is some style CONSISTENTLY produce better fighters than other styles. The critical factor is realism. For example, boxers, judoka, and Muay Thai practioners engage in highly realstic "fights" as a regular part of their training. One realistic bout with an actively resisting opponent is worth about 10 billion hours of kata practice.

Furthermore, this realism shapes the very nature of the arts who engage in it. Ineffective techniques are quickly revealed as such and either improved or discarded; likewise, effective techniques are identified and improved. This kind of dynamic, reality-based learning process simply does not go on in most MAs, where the emphasis is on preserving the "tradition."

Let me put it another way: I am a 4th dan TKD black belt with 23 years experience. I love my art, and have used it successfully to defend myself on two occasions. I feel confident I can handle most self-defense situations I might run into.

However, I am also 37. I work a full-time job. I have many interests and obligations other than training. There is just no way I am going to stand much of a chance against some 26 year old professional Thai boxer, Olympic judoka, or MMA competitor who trains full-time and fights for a living. And there is no shame in admitting this.

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#294844 - 10/21/06 08:15 PM Re: Two 'schools' of karate [Re: fileboy2002]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, I have to admit to being very new to the martial arts. I am sure that most folks involved in karate have a similar pragmatic perspective. After all...if the fundamental reason for studying martial arts is to ensure the survival of the fittest...then it is about optimizing one's toolkit.

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