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#294111 - 10/15/06 09:38 PM A touch of China with tons of applications
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Allow me to show you a different dimension of time and space.

The Chinese 5 animal 8 shape form. I have an incredible amount of documentation on this form, and truly find it interesting.

Victor

Kung fu form 5 animals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkvxxuqoenI&mode=related&search=
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294112 - 10/15/06 11:01 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I had to turn off the music to view it seriously.

lots of material in there. how the heck do people memorize forms that long!?

I have a general question about this form and others I notice this in: what is the interpretation of the arm windmilling-like movements? if they are throws, then I'd think they'd need a different mechanic of getting the body into it. perhaps this kata is for a long weapon? or at least parts of it?

sorry for the noob questions...it's my first time seeing this.

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#294113 - 10/15/06 11:19 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Looks like it has principles from just about all of the classical okinawan kata, without the chinese flair.

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#294114 - 10/16/06 05:16 AM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: medulanet]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Looks like it has principles from just about all of the classical okinawan kata, without the chinese flair.




Yes, its very crane-like. The poster is called "Pakhok3" meaning crane3.
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#294115 - 10/16/06 05:39 AM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

Actually this is not a very long form. Eagle Claw's Lin Kuen (with 50 rows of techniques) is an example of a long form, or perhaps a really long form.

How is it learned, one step at a time.

I like it because of a number of reasons. While different, it's length and technique diversity is similar to some of my chinese stydies (I studied Eagle Claw's Hon Kuen with 10 rows and all of Eagle Claw's techniques present).

It shows well the contrast between Northern Systems and many of the southen systems. Compare it to the crane forms.

It's technique diversity is strong and challenging.

It's a traditional, not modern gymnastic form.

And I really have it documented. Martial Arts of China published 11 articles on it, a complete move by move analysis in incredible detail. I never saw section 7 and they stopped publishing before section 12 (I think the last). It as written by the same person demonstrating it on the video clip. I also have a 2 hour presentation of the form and its applications. Its one of the most indepth martial studies I posses.

I'm not sure what windmilling arms technique you're referring to, but my instuctor referred to that type of technique as flowers (there are also leg flowers when rolling around on the floor too). If you can identify where in the form I'll get around to doing some research on it for you.

The Shaolin 5 shape (referring to movements representing the tiger, dragon, leopard, snake and crane) and 8 method (referring to 1)internal qigong, 2)meditation, 3)dynamic exercise, 4)hand techniques (knocking, cutting, beating, inch fisting, thrusting, sweeping, uppercuts, knuckle pushing, parry, blocking, patting, intercepting, inviting and dodging), 5)leg techniques (snap kick, heel kick, side blocking kick, sole kick, kneeing, side kick), 6)grappling, 7)torso and foot work, 8)vocal work (the utterance of different sounds such as mu, na, yi, he, hai, hei, si and ha).

I think you can make a case that this form is a system unto itself.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294116 - 10/16/06 09:26 AM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks Victor. the movements I was talking about appear at around: 0:46/0:47 1:38/1:39 & 1:53

also, at 2:08, this movement seems highly symbolic and if so, brings up an interesting point...how much IS symbolic movement vs. utility?

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#294117 - 10/16/06 12:42 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Ed_Morris]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
The five animals form I know, while quite different from this one, also has the same symbolic gestures at a few points in the form. It is called "saluting the Buddha". In my form, each of the five animals salutes the buddha...the crane does it on one leg, sinking into a one legged squat, leopard salutes the buddha with crossed legs, dropping to the ground. tiger, snake, and dragon salute the buddha as part of the closing "bow". Those are the only symbolic gestures in my form, the rest has definate application. Even leopard saluting the buddha could have a practical fucntion, as the following technique is crane's cyclone kick, springing up from the cross legged seated posture into the kick.
I like the form in this vid. I noticed some of the snake, or maybe dragon techniques used a baguazhang type movement. I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. Green dragon comes out of the sea could be applied that way... The five animals form is supposed to contain a union of internal and external techniques, so it makes sense. I shall examine some of the movements in my own form a little bit...

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#294118 - 10/16/06 02:04 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,
I'll check the documentation tonight to give you the 'correct' answer. The movement you question last I beleive is a symbolic buddhist movement, after all that was the purpose of Shaolin, to follow the Buddha's way.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294119 - 10/16/06 03:14 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

how the heck do people memorize forms that long!?




There are times when I think I took up the wrong art. Learning a new form is one of my favorite activities in TKD. I may switch just for the challenge of trying to memorize something that long. I honestly can't wait to get my black belt, not because of the rank, but because I can't wait to start learning THREE new patterns rather than one at a time.

I seem to remember an article that was posted a while back on Chess Masters and how their brains work, which might explain the phenomenom.

While TKD patterns are relatively short, one of the things I've noticed is that students seem to remember key moves which trigger a sequence afterwards. When they forget what comes next, they need only be reminded of that key move to be able to continue.

I find that my key moves tend to be ones that cause you to change directions, such as the half way point in many of the TKD patterns. I can instantly start from any of these key points, but have trouble starting inbetween, and will have to work my way up from the nearest key point.

Laura

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#294120 - 10/16/06 08:33 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

Boy what an assignment. The written description of the Shaolin 5/8 was said to be created by Bai Yufeng of the Shaolin School in the mid 17th century. Qin Qingfeng who wrote the article began practice at age 10, and today is the only person who knows the full aspect of the form.

What I find is the written documentation, with all its detail is very hard to follow. So I turned to my vcd's and about 40 minutes into the instruction that section appears.

Performer 046/047

1. Steps forward with a right rising hook punch
2. then the right hand circles down and counter clockwise in a horizontal high hook punch
3. Then the right hand turns over and slices to the left side in a left hammer fist.
4. Then ther right hand turns over and slices to the right side with a right hammer fist as the left hand rises overhead.

Yep, fast as they are, they're just hammerfist strikes to both sides.

They didn't show applications on the movie for it, but I think you can figure out how they'd be used.

My assumption is as extensive as the written documentation is, there are sections missing for some reason.

For the rest well when you next visit you can watch the entire 2 hours and figure it out yourself <GRIN>.

Interesting isn't it?

BTW when I've learned forms this length it took about 1 year a formm, one 1/2 hour class a week, and of course a lot of practice.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294121 - 10/16/06 10:40 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ah...I think I'm seeing it. of course! overhead circular movement. It appears in Saifa...with guess what? a hammerfist then uppercut. It may be a bit more stylized than what I'm used to seeing, but the mechanics are essentially there.

thanks for taking the time to do that Victor. that really is interesting.

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#294122 - 10/17/06 03:54 AM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

This form is so intense. The other techniques as I quickly remember are more standard flowers, the one done open hand and the ones I do are closed fist.

When you think about it, the gentleman doing the form really knows his stuff. Not just doing it but spending 2 hours explaining each detail. Even to the point of sharing it is unreal.

Nothing replaces really training with him of course.

One of the things I find interesting is the form is done more at a karate style of stance than many Northern forms. Whether becuase of the performer's age, or becuase of design, but it makes it easier for I as a karate-ka to understand its movement.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294123 - 10/17/06 02:47 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
As a Reverse-engineer of Kata I find this a truly fascinating form! It is the kind of thing I live to study because as Victor pointed out, it is almost without doubt a system in its own right.

I find it interesting to note that in observing the form a few times I feel I can understand a reasonable portion of it and whether my guesses as to its application are correct or not, it certainly adds credance to the idea of forms being gaurded codices of SE Asia's fighting systems. Had I been trained in the same culture (and period) and in similar arts to those hidden in the 5/8 movements it probably wouldn't take long to decipher the form at all...

Then again perhaps the very fact that it requires dedicated study to understand forms is the reason for their existence as opposed to drawn manuals that give it all away? If so it would seem to me to be a very relevant method of instruction even today.
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#294124 - 10/18/06 08:19 AM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I think one of the truly valuble things this presentation of the Shaolin 5/8 shows us is how the form develops different energy release in its techniques.

This is where the more important study of form/kata lies, as a tool to shape and develop specific mechanical energy release, that just practicing individual techniques will not address.

The longer Chinese forms just make it more obvious, and IMVHO, many karate studies don't touch this to a great extent.

But forms in and of themselves are just tools that accompany other studies, two person practices of many levels.

It's rare a program can address all of the potential studies, as it's rare there are people willing to spend the time really crafting thier art to its fullest degree.

But I really feel that Shaolin 5/8 helps make a case to consider (even if you don't rush out an try and learn the form.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#294125 - 10/21/06 10:57 PM Re: A touch of China with tons of applications [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Here are several other super Chinese formms.

Chinese Wushu - Misuquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ3i0ss2wQI&mode=related&search=

Mizong Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bCBSYLvnk4
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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