FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 43 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn
22904 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 14
cxt 7
trevek 6
JKogas 5
futsaowingchun 3
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Throwing
by
04/23/05 10:58 PM
Recent Posts
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
Yesterday at 05:11 AM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:53 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
07/24/14 11:35 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
Forum Stats
22904 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432455 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#293654 - 10/14/06 10:43 PM The inadequacies of MMA training.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.

2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.

3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.

4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.

5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293655 - 10/14/06 11:10 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Oh YES! This is going to be great. I'm going to take some time and prepare my counterpoints.


Thanks Chen!


-John

Top
#293656 - 10/14/06 11:11 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its what I do John, Its what I do. Looks to be fun.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293657 - 10/14/06 11:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disarms, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just don’t wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.





First, I don’t personally like the idea of weapons disarms, particularly guns. Training empty hand vs. the blade is ok in my book (though not much better) providing that everyone knows that they’re going to be cut if fighting a person with a knife. Still, it isn’t something I personally enjoy considering that my main line of defense in a knife situation is going to be the same as my gun situation – hand over my wallet and keys or, run like hell, depending on circumstances.

That said, I do “little” in the way of weapons stuff. Personally I don’t know many MMA schools that deal with this subject at all.

I agree with your post however. I feel like you’re pretty much right-on with your points.


Quote:


2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldn’t even have to say what’s wrong with this but here goes anyways. No amount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually don’t happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesn’t make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in this situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.





Again I agree here. Though there are exceptions to every rule, I don’t believe that any amount of training will even the odds in multiple attacker situations. Thus I don’t do much of that myself. Again, I don’t know many MMA schools that do. Like the weapons stuff, it’s not very realistic if the objective is to overcome multiples. The idea (like you mentioned) should be creating angles to escape and nothing more. Definitely not trying to “beat up” a group of guys.


Quote:


3rd beef, Grappling. Don’t get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position.





Agreed. Grappling isn’t only ground-fighting. We spend much time training in the clinch as well as the ground. We spend a fair amount of time training to strike as well. We attempt to develop the entire package.



Quote:


I also believe that while ground fighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.





Agreed here again. (Not much to disagree with thus far).

Escape is ALWAYS top priority in any self-defense situation. That’s going to mean staying on your feet. Going to the ground has its drawbacks in certain situations (which would include third, forth and fifth parties – or more).

Escape isn’t always possible if you have to stay and defend your family, etc. Those circumstances require us to do things that fit the needs of the moment. That may include ground-fighting because of the tremendous ally the ground becomes when you have placed an opponent between you and it – providing that doing so is the appropriate response (which is of course, determined by each unique circumstance).


Quote:


4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All I’m gonna say at the present about that.





I’ve grown UP a JKD guy. My brother in law was a student of Larry Hartsell. I’ve had JKD in my blood for years. Truthfully I’ve outgrown much of it and gone way beyond the early stuff I was taught. I don’t really see what I do as JKD “technically” in the way many do. Yet every principle is very much intact.


Quote:


5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a commitment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.

Well there’s a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.






I’m guessing you have a broad-ranged definition of “MMA”. I don’t consider RBSD to be MMA, although they may in fact use the MMA “vehicle” for training purposes. Because that’s all MMA is – another “tool” in the toolbox of fight training.

MMA means, “mixed martial arts”. In truth, I don’t know if there CAN be a mixed martial art because at the end of the day, fighting is just fighting. To take grappling away from punching and kicking (and vice versa) is a relatively NEW thing. We’re (MMA guys) probably only returning to the once natural state of fighting and the training to fight. I wouldn’t say that what we’re doing is anything new at all. Probably more of a rediscovery of the “way it used to be, back in the day”.

Without the kata, of course.



-John

Top
#293658 - 10/14/06 11:53 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
my beefs about MMA training may sound like stereotypes, and if they ARE uninformed stereotypes...it's because I'm basing my view on limited exposure - and I appologize up front for possible ignorance. for clarity, I consider cross-training and MMA to be separate things.

* age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men! ...without kata.

* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven. besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle? also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV. ...and without kata.

* instructors tend to be selfish - a local guy suppossedly teaching a MMA class every saturday, but is actually only there teaching once a month. the other days are run by his senior students...why? because he still competes and goes away to his weekend tournaments. If you are going to compete actively, be on the road and never be there, why even have a school and claim to teach? prestige? to say you have a gym and can give out the website address? ...and without kata?

* too expensive. man, do MMA classes milk people. to someone coming out of H.S. I'd say save your money for college. The geek you were able to tap out in 3 seconds will be making 6 figures while you train to be an awsome fighter...meanwhile you're buffing floors and asking 'paper or plastic?'.

lol... please correct my view....without kata.

Top
#293659 - 10/14/06 11:54 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I do have a broad definition of MMA.Reason being that so many people use this "machine" to promote their given style. Everyone has to get a paycheck, right? It almost to the point that you rarely see a purely one styled dojo but I suppose thats a good thing.

I think you are right also, as far as getting back to the basics of combat. Whats the quote? A punch is just a punch and so on... its a little too obvious to some people. Like when they search the whole house for the keys in their pocket. Some people are trying so hard to find the answers that they skip right over them. While others are so deluded by mysticism and the movies that they could never accept an answer other than what they have been instructed answer with. Glad to see the "regression" into something more solid.
And without Kata.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293660 - 10/15/06 12:03 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Dont know how you got up there without me seeing before I posted.

I already know John is working up an answer for the age thing as he doesnt fit in that group, I dont believe. I do so I cant say much there other than that we dont discriminate. Women are quiet welcome, but most women see it as brutal practice and want no part of it. Maybe its brutal because of the Machoism you mentioned but really Ive seen that attitude everywhere from MMA to ITF TKD.

Selfish instructors, theres a first. lol. I saw my TKD "Instructor" about once a month as you suggested. He was a former world champion in the senior division. Not to mention the testing prices, belt prices and monthly fees as well. Everyone wants to be rich right?

As for too expensive, check selfish instructors.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293661 - 10/15/06 12:08 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ed Morris wrote
Quote:

… for clarity, I consider cross-training and MMA to be separate things.





I do as well, with cross training being inferior, IMO.


Quote:


* age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men!





I see no reason why women cannot train alongside the men! Particularly if they are training with a good school. That’s the key; you have to train with intelligent people who understand coaching. You have to find a school that emphasizes progressive resistance and variable intensity. If you can find a place like that – sign up for life! That’s exactly the joint I try and run. I take in beginners and mix them in with the vets all the time and all goes well. Not every school is ran that way however.



Quote:


* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven.




That is the single biggest thing I despise about MMA. One problem is, it’s now marketed in line with Pro Wrestling. In fact, MMA and “raslin’” are back-to-back on Spike TV – which is terrible because now I have to deal with the wrestling fans who come in wanting to learn how to “twist people up”.

I had one guy who came in looking to train that had actually signed up with a pro wrestling school once. Naturally he wasn’t a good “fit” with the rest of the group who are humble, down to earth folks. We’re nice guys, not Neanderthals. They don’t tend to stay around long because I personally AM attempting to create an environment free of testosterone driven ego battles.


Quote:


besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle?




Well, you don’t. Good schools aren’t about that either. I mean, certainly you have to go harder as you progress in order to challenge and push yourself. But then you can back off after you’ve done that. There is no need for brutality at all though. Most MMA gyms can’t take elbows to the face or risk getting cut in training. Anything like that will only jeopardize their careers.

As for my gym (we don’t have ONE person with the intention of competing – yet), it’s about safety. No need for stupid injuries and there is no need to leave the gym with fewer brain cells than you came in with.


Quote:


also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV.





That’s another reason I am careful about whom I sign on. That is NOT how I run my gym and I won’t tolerate that kind of bullsh*t for a moment. I’ll kick people out of my gym in a New York minute.


Quote:


* instructors tend to be selfish - a local guy suppossedly teaching a MMA class every saturday, but is actually only there teaching once a month. the other days are run by his senior students...why? because he still competes and goes away to his weekend tournaments. If you are going to compete actively, be on the road and never be there, why even have a school and claim to teach? prestige? to say you have a gym and can give out the website address?





Can’t speak for everyone. A-holes are in all walks of life.


Quote:


* too expensive. man, do MMA classes milk people. to someone coming out of H.S. I'd say save your money for college. The geek you were able to tap out in 3 seconds will be making 6 figures while you train to be an awsome fighter...meanwhile you're buffing floors and asking 'paper or plastic?'.

lol... please correct my view.





Agreed with completely!



-John

Top
#293662 - 10/15/06 12:33 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
wow...did you let me off easy! you feeling ok, bro?

thats great that I have the wrong image as it relates to YOUR training...and I believe you. but do you feel you are one of the few exceptions compared to joe-shmoes MMA gym?

I mean, there is exception to how we train kata comparred to your semi-justified stereotyped view of strip-mall kata practice.

If you admit there are a fraction of places that train kata to useful effect, and I admit there are a fraction of MMA places that don't have the stereotypes...then we can safely say, that it's not the method themselves which are flawed - but more likely the individuals relaying those methods.

so the endless kata bashing is unecessary and gets tiresome... just as it probably is for you to hear stereotypes in your art....since you aren't part of the stereotypes. I mean, I assume you've taken BJJ classes without even being gay for instance. lol j/k

Top
#293663 - 10/15/06 12:46 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Cant believe you threw in the gay joke As if bowing down to another man didnt make you look limp wristed enough! JK.

if I may be so bold as to answer for John, I believe that his gym is an exception to the rule. MMA has become as bad as TKD or dare I say Karate as far as your mainstream mcdojo goes. As for the kata thing, for me it remains to be seen. If I saw a place that had trained kata effectively then i would gladly say so. Perhaps you should post a video and show us what its all about Ed. Just pokin at ya. Im sure there are a FEW places on the far corners of the earth that can make it work!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293664 - 10/15/06 11:05 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ed Morris wrote
Quote:

wow...did you let me off easy! you feeling ok, bro?




No, I just agreed with you probably, lol


Quote:


thats great that I have the wrong image as it relates to YOUR training...and I believe you. but do you feel you are one of the few exceptions compared to joe-shmoes MMA gym?





Without question. I don’t know if I am one of the *few* exceptions, but I do agree that there are many of “Joe-Shmoes MMA Gyms” out there. You certainly have to do your research before picking a place to train – if you want to stay healthy and injury free. I personally do believe that my gym is better ran (where the nice guys who aren’t already super-human, freak athletes can benefit).

But there may be a reason for that. For one, I have never claimed to run an MMA gym, in a way. It’s subtle but, I’ve always ran a JKD Concepts place that used the methods of MMA as the primary training vehicle. Much in the same way that the Straight Blast Gym does. So we aren’t “just” an MMA gym. We do things that many MMA gyms don’t do, such as self-defense strategies and weapons training (stick and knife), etc. So perhaps that is where the differences lie.

Technically, the training isn’t really that different from a standard MMA gym. I’ve been grappling for years as well as boxing, Thai boxing, savate, etc. But I’ve done Jun Fan, Kali-Silat as well (although most of that has been dropped). So my background is more of wide ranging variety than perhaps some boneheads out there whose background consisted of training in a “pro-wrestling” school.

Now in defense of MMA, the better schools are often ran well with attention given to the needs of the students and members. Many of them have fight team training as well as classes to the general public. Those will likely be taught a little differently.

All in all, every school is a reflection of the owner/instructor. If they’re an @sshole, everyone else will probably be as well because all of the good guys will eventually leave and go elsewhere, leaving the a-holes to train together. And that happens as well. I’ve experienced it personally.



Quote:


I mean, there is exception to how we train kata compared to your semi-justified stereotyped view of strip-mall kata practice.

If you admit there are a fraction of places that train kata to useful effect, and I admit there are a fraction of MMA places that don't have the stereotypes...then we can safely say, that it's not the method themselves which are flawed - but more likely the individuals relaying those methods.





I would always agree that bad instruction is the main culprit behind bad training. And that does seem to be plentiful. Before I can simply state that kata can be trained to “useful effect”, I’d have to see it done. I can’t just sign off on that completely without doing so. I guess because I have NEVER seen it done. But I won’t shut the door to that possibility, simply because I respect your opinion. If you say it is, I am forced to give it some consideration.


Quote:


so the endless kata bashing is unnecessary and gets tiresome... just as it probably is for you to hear stereotypes in your art....since you aren't part of the stereotypes. I mean, I assume you've taken BJJ classes without even being gay for instance. lol j/k





I used to bash kata. I used to bash everything I didn’t like. That’s toned down to a degree now I believe. I mean, I still give my opinion about things ya know, but I try not to be insulting in the process. I mean, stereotyping things isn’t a good thing, even though they are derived from truths.

Yes, I have always heard people stereotyping BJJ and MMA saying it’s “sport” this and “tournament” that. And just like you feel, I know in my heart that these folks don’t have a clue and probably haven’t been horizontal on a mat for a single minute of their lives. And it used to bother me a little. Now it doesn’t phase me.



Chen Zen wrote
Quote:

Cant believe you threw in the gay joke As if bowing down to another man didnt make you look limp wristed enough! JK.





Yeah, I know Ed was joking and that’s cool too. I do enough to be a smart-ass myself around here but, I don’t mind people ribbing me. I just don’t want them “checking my oil”.


Quote:


if I may be so bold as to answer for John, I believe that his gym is an exception to the rule. MMA has become as bad as TKD or dare I say Karate as far as your mainstream mcdojo goes.





I hear ya Chen, though I don’t know if MMA could ever truthfully go the way of the McDojo. The training makes you sweat and average McDojo students don’t really like that. They don’t like sore muscles. They don’t like waking up in the morning, feeling like they’ve spent the night in a cement mixer.

I’ve taken my fair share of Advil.


Quote:


As for the kata thing, for me it remains to be seen. If I saw a place that had trained kata effectively then i would gladly say so. Perhaps you should post a video and show us what its all about Ed. Just pokin at ya. Im sure there are a FEW places on the far corners of the earth that can make it work!





I’d say that there are exceptions for every rule. I’m willing to admit that, but like you, I’d have to see it to believe it.



-John

Top
#293665 - 10/15/06 04:14 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
you guys might have not noticed that I havent exactly been around here alot mainly because I've spent some time on a Southern Praying Mantis forum. Its great to talk about my art with others that do the same but at the same time...theres such a deep dislike towards MMA, with an exception of a few guys.

Theres always that arguement that MMA guys are weak against people who use techniques that are not allowed in the ring, such as eye gouges and throat shots, etc. And I guess they fail to see the difference between MMA methodolgy & training and MMA competition. When MMA comes to their mind its redneck, hot heads and people who think grappling is superior. Thats the image of a fighter in their mind, that they're all a$$holes and jerks who live to fight.

I think that MMA gets such an image because everything they do revolves around fighting. I mean many MAs out there are about fighting but its more spiritual? or internal? I'm not really sure how to put it. Like in Southern Mantis its all about fighting but there are forms (aka katas) and breathing techniques, development of your iron shirt stuff, etc etc. Something that is common to many MAs out there. But in MMA its all about fighting and kind of resulting in why people think they are asses and everything. Again I'm speaking about your typical MMA guy.

I'm bashed on alot for my support of MMA and use of JKD in my TMA training, which I dont really understand. MMA and JKD mainly are giving you tools and ways for you to train in order to adapt to every situation.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293666 - 10/15/06 04:32 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote

Quote:

Its great to talk about my art with others that do the same but at the same time...theres such a deep dislike towards MMA, with an exception of a few guys.





You know something, that’s not a surprise whatsoever. The question is WHY they have a deep dislike. In my experience, such dislike is born of two things: ignorance and fear.


Quote:


Theres always that arguement that MMA guys are weak against people who use techniques that are not allowed in the ring, such as eye gouges and throat shots, etc. And I guess they fail to see the difference between MMA methodolgy & training and MMA competition.





BINGO! At least YOU realize that. The fact that others can’t see this for some reason, really speaks of a general lack of intelligence and common sense. I mean, lets be honest here.



Quote:


When MMA comes to their mind its redneck, hot heads and people who think grappling is superior. Thats the image of a fighter in their mind, that they're all a$$holes and jerks who live to fight.






That’s also lumping everyone that’s into MMA into a box. I wouldn’t fit that description at all. How surprised they might be to find out that MMA is populated by intelligent men as well as idiots – just like any other segment of the martial arts community.


Quote:


I think that MMA gets such an image because everything they do revolves around fighting. I mean many MAs out there are about fighting but its more spiritual? or internal?





Lets not bullsh*t ourselves. Martial arts are first and foremost about fighting. Otherwise, you’d just go to church, correct?

The spiritual component comes through if that’s what an individual is seeking for. It comes through BY fighting, not by meditating and doing ritualistic movements. Dancing doesn’t create enlightenment anymore than does meditating behind a waterfall. It comes through testing and pushing oneself beyond any perceived limitations!



Quote:


I'm not really sure how to put it. Like in Southern Mantis its all about fighting but there are forms (aka katas) and breathing techniques, development of your iron shirt stuff, etc etc. Something that is common to many MAs out there. But in MMA its all about fighting and kind of resulting in why people think they are asses and everything. Again I'm speaking about your typical MMA guy.

I'm bashed on alot for my support of MMA and use of JKD in my TMA training, which I dont really understand. MMA and JKD mainly are giving you tools and ways for you to train in order to adapt to every situation.





Again, ignorance is the main cause for people bashing MMA. Usually those who scoff at it the most are those who’ve never studied it. Do the math yourself there.



-John

Top
#293667 - 10/15/06 07:40 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I never understood why people assume that MMA is sport based. My MMA would never be allowed in competition. Thats not to say that I wouldnt love to compete, but I train self defense first. If you can fight effectively, then you should be able to water it down a little for competition without having to specifically train for sport, IMO.

As for peoples biased ideology, its to be expected. MA are alomost religion to some people and when you challenge someones beliefs they often are offended rather than enlightened.

Top
#293668 - 10/15/06 07:57 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
MMA is just a method of training. Rules can be altered to suit training objectives, period.



-John

Top
#293669 - 10/16/06 12:01 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

<snip>

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.




I see the title says MMA, and you say MMA a couple times in your post, but I don't see anything in the meat of your original post that is actually talking about MMA.

Top
#293670 - 10/16/06 12:53 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hear ya.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293671 - 01/06/07 05:41 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
First, I'll say that I like the fact that you are such an intelligent person who tries to examine things from as objective a standpoint as possible. I like reading your posts, even though they can be controversial at times. People don't understand that martial arts were not always the way they are today, and that they will not always be this way in the future. I am a traditionalist, but I also understand the need to grow and evolve. I just do so within a traditional context, adding to tradition, I guess. I am a progressivist .

Quote:

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.




I have read about many gun disarms, but I always thought that it was a bad idea to try to do a gun disarm when the criminal only has to squeeze the trigger. Complicated disarming maneuver vs. simple squeezing reaction - um, yeah - I'd rather just hand over my wallet. I'd only use such a thing if I knew I was going to die anyways. So I agree with you on this one.

Quote:

2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.




This is one of the reasons why kata is attacked so viciously. Mcdojo's claim that kata teaches you to fight multiple attackers. That could be one of the possible ways to train it, but I personally never trained it as such and I don't think the kata were really meant for that, but that is just my opinion. It is hard enough trying to defeat one aggressor, why would you attempt to defeat an entire group? Now, there are some gifted fighters who can pull it off, I have seen them do it. However, it is more of the individual's personal prowess and not so much formal training - they did what they did and not all of what they did was from formal martial arts training. I guess that I agree with you again - training exclusively for multiple aggressors may not be the best course of action.

Quote:

3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.




Amen! The recent popularity of groundfighting has led many to believe that groundfighting is the only way to go and that striking and stand up grappling are near useless. It is nice to see that there are good martial artists who are trying to set the record straight. Groundfighting is fine one on one, but is counterproductive when confronted by multiples, IMHO. I guess that grappling is fine if you are using someone as a human sheild or if you are throwing them into the others to clear a path or slow them down. It is all in how you use it, but I agree with again on this point.

Quote:

4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.




Man, you are on fire. Most of Bruce Lee's superiority was mostly in the movies, not in real life. While he was an outstanding martial artist, he was not the greatest martial artist of all time, definitely the most popular one of all time, though. Bruce Lee did what worked best for Bruce Lee and his main message was for martial artists to do what works best for them. He created a style for him and he wanted each individual to create a style for themselves. If a school is trying to teach you how to fight like Bruce Lee then that school is going against what Bruce Lee was trying to teach in the first place.

Quote:

5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.




I always thought that RBMA was a gimmick and a cheap way to make money. It seems like all of the instructors are trying to cash in on terrorism and bar brawls. Some of them seem like downright flakes if you ask me. Just another one of those 'I can give you everything you need in no time at all' type of deals. I respect them because they are trying to be innovative and train an area that often goes overlooked, but people could just as easily consult a local LEO or military vet for such training and insights. They can add what they learned to what they already practice, thus eliminating the need for the RBMA fad. Just add a modern component to what you already train in. Adjust your techniques to meet modern day situations, thus fostering the evolution of all martial arts. We already have the tools, just add some new blue prints.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293672 - 01/08/07 04:47 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
tkd_dude Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Great thread, I'd have to say though, if you want to do a gun disarm with a paintball pistol, you need a mask. I can tell you that they don't hurt too terribly bad, but a paintball in the eye is as good as or better than any eye gouge I've ever seen. Wear a mask, don't get hurt.

Top
#293673 - 01/09/07 12:43 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: tkd_dude]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Thanks guys. As far as contreversy, it comes with the territory. I just want people to think about what they are doing instead of always accepting just what they are told.

Oh and the mask is a very good idea.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293674 - 01/09/07 10:46 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Chen

"I just want people to think about what they are doing instead of always accpeting just what they are told."

Very good way to put it, and very good advice!
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#293675 - 01/09/07 02:35 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: cxt]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Wait so no weapons defenses of nay type, no multiple attacker training, etc? How incomplete. Yes 1 on 1 duking it out is not all there is. (please note I didn't read all posts).
It's not about winning it's about survival.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/09/07 02:36 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#293676 - 01/09/07 04:26 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Stormdragon]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
well most (not all) MMA schools out there teach you things that are mainly geared to 1 on 1 fights and give you more of a UFC/Pride take on what MMA is. Meaning alot of times the nitty gritty, dirty techniques are sometimes overlooked and not taught. Or like you said weapons and multiple opponents (which a nice randori can help solve).
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293677 - 01/09/07 08:45 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im not saying you shouldnt have a defensive strategy for weapons or multiple attackers that you practice often. You should, but dont be fooled into thinking your faster than a bullet. You arent. And no amount of muscle you may have is going to be strong enough to stop the bullet either. And if all you know is grappling, dont assume that you can use that uccessfully against several opponents. You can only grab so many people or limbs at a time.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293678 - 01/09/07 10:03 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
lol i dont think anything of the body can stop a bullet, thats a given. In terms of grappling against multiples, obviously it would be all stand up like randori (in aikido anyway). Constant moving and body positioning so that the other guys cant attack you and while you're doing that don't mind snapping a few joints here and there. I'm sure you guys have seen randori, I think its a great excercise even though I've never done it. While randori has been reduced to just pushing and pinning in Aikido, it can be taken to more extremes with striking and whatever else you wanna add in. But your average MMA school probably doesnt do this.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293679 - 01/10/07 05:25 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Im not saying you shouldnt have a defensive strategy for weapons or multiple attackers that you practice often. You should, but dont be fooled into thinking your faster than a bullet. You arent. And no amount of muscle you may have is going to be strong enough to stop the bullet either. And if all you know is grappling, dont assume that you can use that uccessfully against several opponents. You can only grab so many people or limbs at a time.




I know people who only wrestled at the collegiate level and have no other training but can take on 8 guys at the same time and win easily. That's 20 years of wrestling experience though, but the notion that you can't grapple multiple opponents is a myth.

Top
#293680 - 01/10/07 02:22 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.







I see your point but I don't see why you don't believe you shouldn't train for it. When ever you enter any conflict theres a chance you could die or be injuried. We train against the gun & knife because thats the world we live in. We train as you suggested with the Air Soft 400fps paint ball guns, true success rate is below 70% but its better then ZERO% or not being prepared at all. One of the things I hate is the idea that the bad guy is the only one that knows how to use a gun. Countering deadly force with deadly force brings the odds up past 90% in our practice.






After seminars and demo smart alect Teens and Adults will asked yeah thats great but what would you do if I pulled out my 9. My reply is blow you out your Reeboks with my 45!!! A.W at A.T. My body is used when I have no other weapon.



2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.





As for multiple the odds are not with you, but I have to ask what the hell do you think we Martial artist were doing before the Gracies said you can't fight Multiples. If I had believed that I'd be laying in a bathroom KO'd when mugged by two men, the near text book, bear hug arms pinned and one guy punching toward my face. There ain't no GREATER PROOF THAT THE MARTAIL ARTS WORKS THEN walking away from that. No trophies big enough, No pile of money high enough, no womans kiss sweet enough. Then to know all those hrs. of hard work, WORKED. You can tell me the odds, statistics, all that the Great Grapplers say it can't happen, you can tell me you don't believe me, it couldn't happen again. But you can't make me believe it didn't happen or that my art didn't work. Each person should train the way they believe and for the environment they live in. People that don't beleive in defending against multiples keep doing whats best for you. But at 4th kyu up through Black belt they train the same defense for a mugging with 1 or two guys punching. We train it so realistic, at a certain point, if you panic, some are knocked out while in the bear hug if they freeze (Attacker wearing gloves). They do it because I know it worked. Ain't trying change nobody or convince nobody, just saying what I teach and why.








3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.




I agree totally here Grappling should emphasis clinching and all the weapons and defenses within this range. It should also include a ground game, but emphasize getting back up as soon as possible. To escape.




4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.

I wouldn't say a Mcdojo just one lost in time, theres nothing wrong with JKD clubs that stress WC over Silat or Kali as long as they mix the ranges and explorer other avenues of training. Surely Bruce would have changed with the times and would have thought, Man tehy finally got it almost. Of course this is just my oppinion.


5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.




You need to keep the JKD code don't become stagnate alway question and grow. I agree here to. I do agree with Ed 50-60 years can't do MMA well.

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.




Edited by Neko456 (01/10/07 02:34 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#293681 - 01/10/07 06:56 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
"I know people that...can take on 8 guys at once and win easly..."

Here we go again.

Just once I wish the trolls would come up with something new and half way clever.

Just once!



Edited by cxt (01/10/07 06:57 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#293682 - 01/10/07 10:40 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
ambiguity Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
IMO the only inadequacies in any art,are there application and the big question of 'What am i really trying to acheive here?'be it a MMA gym or TKD dojo the real choice is an individual one.If youre goal is red neck stardom or contemplative monk,its entirly related to the gym enviroment that u train in.
_________________________
its all good all the time

Top
#293683 - 01/11/07 09:16 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men! ...without kata.

* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven. besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle? also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV. ...and without kata.




i definately agree that TV exposure and marketing has inspired a lot of wannabe hard men to look into becoming 'cage fighters', but as JK said, MMA schools, as with all MA schools, have the atmosphere that the instructors allow/encourage.

Case in point.
our senior instructor as an awesome Sombo wrestler/grappler, as well as Savateur, and exponent of Inosanto 'flavoured' JKD. Who better for the local MMA club to approach asking for additional assistance in technique training for competetive MMA matches?
An agreement was made, and an 'MMA' training slot created in the syllabus, where these guys, and regular club members could come and roll/strike and practice ringcraft etc.
Trouble was that the guys from the MMA club didnt understand the concept of learning and practice- as soon as a new transition or technique was shown, they would be straight into throwing down and trying it out full force on one another, or any class member unlucky enough to be partnered with them. My instructor told them to save the full on stuff for the competitions, not to risk injury, and to work on technique, but still they carried on being stupid and OTT. after a few weeks, the agreement was revoked and they were told to go beat each other up elsewhere. No concept of respect or control, no offer of the fat sombo moves. Simple as that.

We still have that class though, covering change of fighting range from stand up through clinch, to ground, just it consists of people with a better attitude.

On the other side of the coin, i have visited a local muay Thai school that is very focussed on competition. When you go in there, the atmosphere is entirely different to a 'martial arts' class. It is a fighters gym, full of fighters. They are not unfriendly, unruly, arrogant or mean, but they are focussed 100% on learning how to dominate and beat their oponent in every second of every round.
That difference in atmosphere could be seen as 'intimidating' to some, though i noted that there were several females there, all of whom appeared to compete, and felt very comfortable in there.

My argument would be, in regards not just to females but to SD application in general, how is a person going to use any technique they learn in the cheery environs of a nurturing MA class, if they cant handle training in a well controlled no nonsense fighting atmosphere?
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#293684 - 01/11/07 11:41 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I know people who only wrestled at the collegiate level and have no other training but can take on 8 guys at the same time and win easily.




Dude......please tell me you are kidding. That must be a joke.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#293685 - 01/11/07 08:35 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Mc MMA gyms?, and they thoght matt huges made them invincible!! whats the next fad?
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#293686 - 01/11/07 10:36 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: student_of_life]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Mc MMA gyms?, and they thoght matt huges made them invincible!! whats the next fad?




Every time something becomes popular, it always goes mcdojo. I believe they have a word for it now - crappling, I think. Yes, a fad indeed. Just like the ninja fad, it will run its course and the same people who swore by it will talk about how lame it is and we will all be back to square one. We have already seen this before. I totally agree with you.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293687 - 01/12/07 01:12 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im not saying you cant beat multiple opponents grappling. Randori is an excellent tool as suggested. However, you dont see it in MMA due to Bias, against Aikido in general, and because the sport aspect of mma doesnt allow small joint manipulation. That doesnt mean that you couldnt use bjj effectively against more than one person, but there is far to much emphasis on ground and pound or ground and snap, when you dont have to have the ground at all.

As for dude taking on eight guys at once, get real. Maybe he got lucky once and beat up a bunch of nuns or something but a group of eight skilled opponents? Doubt it highly. Doing it consistently, no way.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293688 - 01/13/07 01:21 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: MattJ]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Quote:

I know people who only wrestled at the collegiate level and have no other training but can take on 8 guys at the same time and win easily.




Dude......please tell me you are kidding. That must be a joke.




No, I'm serious. You don't wanna mess with top level wrestlers, even if you're in a group.

Top
#293689 - 01/13/07 01:25 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Im not saying you cant beat multiple opponents grappling. Randori is an excellent tool as suggested. However, you dont see it in MMA due to Bias, against Aikido in general, and because the sport aspect of mma doesnt allow small joint manipulation. That doesnt mean that you couldnt use bjj effectively against more than one person, but there is far to much emphasis on ground and pound or ground and snap, when you dont have to have the ground at all.

As for dude taking on eight guys at once, get real. Maybe he got lucky once and beat up a bunch of nuns or something but a group of eight skilled opponents? Doubt it highly. Doing it consistently, no way.




I never said anything about their level of skill. That's really not a relevant point though, since you originally said it wasn't possible, which obviously isn't the case. You're not going to take out 8 skilled oponents (depending on your definition of skill), even if you're armed short of an SMG. Dealing with more than one person doesn't automatically negate grappling - grab, throw into the wall, pick someone else up and slam them, clinch and throw some knees, keep going. Someone who wrestles at a national or international level is going to have an easy time with that.

Top
#293690 - 01/13/07 12:31 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
There level of skill isnt relevant?! Get real. I could wrestle twenty 5 year olds and win easily, but Im not going to come on here and say its possible to beat that many people by yourself.

And I also said, that grappling isnt possible or negated by multiple opponents, but that there needs to be less emphasis of taking it to the GROUND.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293691 - 01/14/07 03:32 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
agreed about the ground thing, many people forget that grappling begins on the feet and arts like Aikido, Judo, and your different Chinese wrestlings are all pretty much stand up (unless you find yourself some non-sport Judo from the old school). And arts like these often have their philosophy and techniques not included in MMA because of some of the rules in competition.

....too much of MMA is controled and influenced by MMA competition
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293692 - 01/14/07 09:04 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Katana83 wrote:
Quote:


Every time something becomes popular, it always goes mcdojo. I believe they have a word for it now - crappling, I think. Yes, a fad indeed. Just like the ninja fad, it will run its course and the same people who swore by it will talk about how lame it is and we will all be back to square one. We have already seen this before. I totally agree with you.





A "fad" that has been going on for close to 14 years now?

Tell you why it's NOT a fad; because people have had their eyes opened to what "real" training should consist of. The blindfold has been lifted by the advent of MMA and people just know better these days.

If you're NOT grappling by the year 2007, you should probably think that there is something wrong with you.



IExcalibui2 wrote:
Quote:

agreed about the ground thing, many people forget that grappling begins on the feet and arts like Aikido, Judo, and your different Chinese wrestlings are all pretty much stand up (unless you find yourself some non-sport Judo from the old school). And arts like these often have their philosophy and techniques not included in MMA because of some of the rules in competition.





What are you saying here, that the reason you don't see Aikido and Chinese wrestling enthusiasts in MMA is because they can't use their technique? If so, I have another theory of why you don't see them.

I'd say that if you can't "use" a technique in MMA, you probably can't "use" it in alive training either. There's a little problem there.



Quote:


....too much of MMA is controled and influenced by MMA competition





Explain that one for me? Perhaps I'm overly slow this morning while I wait for my coffee to finish brewing.


-John

Top
#293693 - 01/15/07 12:11 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
The "fad" that I am talking about is MMA in its latest, ufc-like format. MMA has been going on for far longer than 14 years, but the way that it is practiced now, is the "fad" that I am talking about it. The majority of people are practicing only to do the cage thing. Nothing wrong with that, however, it is the flavor of the day and when something like that comes along, everybody will eventually abandon it for the latest "new" thing and talk about how lame the old one is - right after they have sworn how superior or how "real" the old one is. The only real training is to actually get into fights on the street. No matter how much other training you do, you are not recreating the real thing because in the back of your mind you know that you are going to walk away from it. There are lots of people who have never taken MA, but they can fight much better than an MAist because they have been in enough guffs on the street to know how to get the job done. They don't draw on training or sparring, they draw on actual experience from being in real life-or-death situations - that is the only "real" training. MMA was not invented recently, it has been around since the days of the greeks and the romans - people have just made it more popular nowadays, which is another hint of it being a fad. People will make something else more popular tommorrow and turn away from grappling, and the cycle will continue. I have been grappling my whole life, grappling is a natural extension of striking, don't say that there is something wrong with me just because I have a mind of my own and I don't blindly follow the herd to the flavor of the day . I am a striker, but I work all other ranges into my training because they are a natural extension, and because, well, it's fun. At one point, people were saying the same thing about ninjutsu, and that fad passed. Been there, done that. When ufc is no longer fun, people will move onto something else and talk about how grappling just doesn't get it done. that is the "fad" that I was talking about.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293694 - 01/15/07 12:20 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Katana83]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I know the fad you're talking about...the one that's been going on for 14 years now.

Everything short of street fighting is "pretend" (but I'm sure you're not advocating going out and getting in street fights). However, did anyone here say otherwise or something? Or is it that you just have an axe to grind???


-John

Top
#293695 - 01/15/07 02:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
No, not advocating street fighting, but for all of the talk that goes on about real training, that is the only form of real training. I don't go around mentioning "I do real training" because I try to avoid that (street fighting) as much as possible. There are a lot of people who spar with a buddy then swear up and down that what they do is real training, never mind the fact that they know the person and they know subconsciously that they are in no real danger. Yes, it is a fad - first karate tournaments were all the rage, then it moved on to primarily kickboxing, now we are at the cage, tommorrow it will be something else. That is just how popular culture works. MMA themselves, however, have been around for more than 14 years and they will continue into the future - but their current mainstream environment will subside and their amount of supporters will dwindle as the herd moves on to the next big thing. The same thing happened with classical systems, remember when they were all the rage back in the 70's and 80's, now the herd has moved on to modern sport taekwondo, san shou, ufc, etc. Perhaps Chuck Norris' Ultimate Combat League will be the next big thing that the herd moves on to. Then there will be people talking about how superior striking arts are, etc, etc. and the process repeats. No axe to grind, just defending my points. Sorry if I came off that way, that definitely was not my intention .
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293696 - 01/15/07 03:40 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Katana83]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

No, not advocating street fighting, but for all of the talk that goes on about real training, that is the only form of real training.





I disagree. Real training is any training that is geared toward performance enhancement/improvement. There is no training on the street that is going to be "better" in terms of skill development. In fact it could be a lot worse in terms of bad habits, questionable skill levels of one's "partners", death, etc. Need I go on?

What it is is real fighting. Real training is had in the gym. I can and will argue that point all day long.


Quote:


I don't go around mentioning "I do real training" because I try to avoid that (street fighting) as much as possible. There are a lot of people who spar with a buddy then swear up and down that what they do is real training, never mind the fact that they know the person and they know subconsciously that they are in no real danger.





If one must train, then HOW one trains becomes important. The objective is to come as close to the edge as possible without going over. That's what MMA training allows. Any less and you're training yourself OUT of performance. Of course there is always progressive resistance, etc. But thats true anywhere. The point is, you have to train. How else are you going to do it than athletically and agaist resistance?


Quote:


Yes, it is a fad - first karate tournaments were all the rage,





I'm betting they still are. How do you define a fad then?


Quote:

then it moved on to primarily kickboxing, now we are at the cage, tommorrow it will be something else.




Fighting has been arouund forever. Where it occurs is irelevant (cage, ring, parking lot, ice rink). Don't really give a damn about that. It's HOW it occurs that matters to me, just as with training. The how is more important.

Personally I wouldn't care if MMA became less popular. There would be a lot less idiots looking for training. But I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. Boxing is what is disappearing.

How long do "fads" last in your mind?


Quote:

MMA themselves, however, have been around for more than 14 years and they will continue into the future - but their current mainstream environment will subside and their amount of supporters will dwindle as the herd moves on to the next big thing.





So at once you're saying that its both a fad and NOT a fad. Who cares about what the mainstream thinks and what does this have to do with the inadequacies of MMA training as a whole?

Of course MMA has been around for more than 14 years, but I'm speaking of the sport as it is in the US. Modern MMA has been around since at LEAST 1925.


Quote:


The same thing happened with classical systems, remember when they were all the rage back in the 70's and 80's, now the herd has moved on to modern sport taekwondo, san shou, ufc, etc.





You gather that based upon what? Have you looked around this forum lately?? I don't think the classical systems have gone anywhere. I wonder who you're polling for your information.


Quote:


Perhaps Chuck Norris' Ultimate Combat League will be the next big thing that the herd moves on to. Then there will be people talking about how superior striking arts are, etc, etc. and the process repeats. No axe to grind, just defending my points. Sorry if I came off that way, that definitely was not my intention .




It's all good man, I'm really not arguing with you so much as presenting my own points of view. I agree with some of what you're saying, but definitely not all of it.

Fighting is fighting. Fighting isn't a fad nor is competition. Wrestling itself has been around for thousands of years. The forms and rules fluctuate over time but overall it's been pretty consistent I'd say. Boxing in its modern form has been around for a long damned time now. Is that a fad as well?

Let me get your opinion, what is NOT a fad to you?


-John

Top
#293697 - 01/15/07 04:54 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Street fighting is the inverse of self defense. I agree with your point that competition is taking over many of the MMA halls outthere. I try to compete when I can, but my training is for real defense. Part of that training, however, is to avoid that initial conflict in the first place.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293698 - 01/16/07 12:53 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
well John we can both agree that its the not the arts (Aikido, Chin Na, Judo, etc) that are in question right? Because the techniques do work if done right and if that person trains correctly.

My comment was more on that MMA schools now are just taking BJJ and Muay Thai and mixing techniques and training methods . I mean your standard MMA place will have Muay Thai and BJJ as a means to advertise. And its fine, those arts have great training methods to really make you improve.

However, just like JKD philosophy, MMA can mean different things to different people. I mean you can do the mixing of arts other than BJJ and MT or add in other things like the arts mentioned above. As long as you're training correctly whats the problem?
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293699 - 01/16/07 07:07 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

well John we can both agree that its the not the arts (Aikido, Chin Na, Judo, etc) that are in question right? Because the techniques do work if done right and if that person trains correctly.





Judo I can agree with. It’s trained alive and isn’t about small joint manipulation. The arts that ARE about small joint manipulation are of questionable worth in my opinion. That would specifically include aikido as I’ve never had a high opinion about that art. I have no immediate experience with Chin Na but as it’s based largely around small joint manipulation, I’d have to say that I would run out to begin training it.

And this isn't to say that SJM shouldn't be a part of someone's training. It CAN play a part. But fighting and fight training should be "position-based" and most of one's time should be devoted to training this way.

Within a POSITION of dominance, the percentage for SJM goes up imo. It's still a bit risky I believe, but can work in those situations.

I personally am just not a big fan of that sort of thing.


Quote:


My comment was more on that MMA schools now are just taking BJJ and Muay Thai and mixing techniques and training methods . I mean your standard MMA place will have Muay Thai and BJJ as a means to advertise. And its fine, those arts have great training methods to really make you improve.





Those arts are the ones with the highest percentage of developing the ability to fight well against resistance. It doesn’t have so much to do with advertisement as it does the fact that those arts are trained alive and against full resistance. THAT is why they are the cornerstone of any MMA syllabus.


Quote:


However, just like JKD philosophy, MMA can mean different things to different people. I mean you can do the mixing of arts other than BJJ and MT or add in other things like the arts mentioned above. As long as you're training correctly whats the problem?





Remember that MMA isn’t about the mixing of arts so much as it is about the mixing of “ranges” (stand-up, clinch and ground). If we’re aware of that, we’re already on the right path. Secondly, it’s the fact that the art is trained ALIVE that is the most important principle. So long as you can practice against resistance in full sparring situations (and that does NOT mean “brutality”), you’ll be good to go.


-John

Top
#293700 - 01/16/07 03:01 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
the main thing is that BJJ and MT are corner stones for their approach to training, which could be translated to many other arts out there as well. And positioning is a part in every MA whether your going to break someones wrist, choke them out, or punch their face. My point was just that you can take Aikido and apply the methodology of MMA training to it and thus have a very different and more unique MMA school that would have its strength in SJM but still have the basics to cover the different ranges. Just like how some MMA guys specialize in ground & pound, striking, submission, hands, feet, etc. Specialization can be anything the artist chooses.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293701 - 01/16/07 06:44 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Quote:


It's all good man, I'm really not arguing with you so much as presenting my own points of view. I agree with some of what you're saying, but definitely not all of it.

Fighting is fighting. Fighting isn't a fad nor is competition. Wrestling itself has been around for thousands of years. The forms and rules fluctuate over time but overall it's been pretty consistent I'd say. Boxing in its modern form has been around for a long damned time now. Is that a fad as well?

Let me get your opinion, what is NOT a fad to you?

-John




By fad I meant the flavor of the day, what is most popular, the latest craze, more like the 'in' thing. The original point I was addressing had to do with mcdojoism in the MMA. I was saying that anything that becomes extremely popular within the herd is going to experience mcdojoism. The fad part was meant to address the large portion of the herd that trains in MMA and supports UFC because it is the 'it' thing to do these days, wasn't trying to say that MMA and UFC themselves were a fad, although looking back at my posts, it sounds like that, so I am sorry for the misunderstanding. By fad, I meant that a vast majority of people are only interested in MMA because of the UFC or vice versa, and that once it is no longer considered the 'in' thing that they will move on to the next 'in' thing, talk about how it is the best thing in ma, then turn around and bad mouth MMA and UFC. You know, the whole 'would have you done for me lately?' thing. This is similar to what happened to classical systems, and this is why I mentioned them. There was a time when they were the 'in' thing and they were at a level of popularity equal to that of the UFC and MMA, especially during the kung fu movie and ninja craze. Those styles became so popular that mcdojoism sprang up within them with a vengeance. So what is not a fad to me? The part of the martial arts community that practices martial arts irregardless of the flavor of day, the part that sticks with a style long after it has been abandoned by the superficial mainstream. Kinda like afros, some people only wore them because they were considered the 'in' thing to do at the time, some people wore them because they really liked them and they still wear them to this very day.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293702 - 01/18/07 01:51 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
My only problem with MMA is that it seems to have become another school of thought.

Why not just cut away all that "My style is..." or that "Style is..." or "I do not agree with that style because..." and just focus on what we know works; ignorant of where it came from?

All martial artists must inevitably "Mix" in what they do with what another style would do. Otherwise, we will stay bound up in our repetitive patterns.

As the man said, we have only two hands and two feet. Why not talk to the other people around us and see what we find?

For all our talk, who would brazenly walk up to a practioner of another style we disagree with, and say "You sir, are an of an inferior style compared to mine. This is because you..."

I do not despise the MMA, Karate, kata, or whomever else as somehow below me or doing something "horrible". I simply believe they are doing something different. I may disagree with their methods, but I do not have to hate them for it. I'll do what I'll do, they can what they will. My truth cannot be their truth, so I will not try to force it to them. If they ask me about ym truth, I will be honest. If they ask me about what I think of their truth, I will be honest and polite, because I do not feel the need to condemn. I am not holding myself as some saint of course, I am just saying as example.

Really, what are we here for?


Edited by Demonologist437 (01/18/07 01:53 AM)
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

Top
#293703 - 01/18/07 08:05 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Demonologist437]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote
Quote:


And positioning is a part in every MA whether your going to break someone’s wrist, choke them out, or punch their face.




What do you classify as “positioning”? I have a different opinion here as I don’t see very many martial arts training positioning the way that I see the cornerstones of MMA doing it, particularly Thai boxing, Greco and BJJ. That said, I won’t say that those arts “own” positional fighting. It’s just that you don’t see it to the same extent.


Quote:


My point was just that you can take Aikido and apply the methodology of MMA training to it and thus have a very different and more unique MMA school that would have its strength in SJM but still have the basics to cover the different ranges. Just like how some MMA guys specialize in ground & pound, striking, submission, hands, feet, etc. Specialization can be anything the artist chooses.





Sure, but I don’t think it would work as successfully because I’ve YET to see any real functional use of small joint manipulation from ANY practitioner unless he already had a control position on the ground. If that is what you're referring to, I don't see anything wrong with that so long as you are able to maintain positional control. Obviously that HAS to come first.

Aikido from standing? Doesn’t and won’t work under fight conditions against a worthy adversary. If it won’t (and I fully believe it won’t and have trained it), why waste time trying to work something into a mix where other things work better?

What many fail to see is that LARGE joint manipulation is hard to get on a resisting fighter. Considering that you have MUCH more control over large joints and that they’re still difficult to obtain as per submissions, small joint manipulation is going to be MUCH more difficult to obtain.

My main goal has been to focus on what I consider to be “high percentage” technique. SMJ is not what I would consider to be high percentage. When we are talking about fighting, I don’t think we have the luxury to focus on any less. That would be MY opinion.

But I AM curious to know your opinions and views and I do respect them. Keep 'em coming, this is an excellent discourse


Katana83 wrote
Quote:


By fad I meant the flavor of the day, what is most popular, the latest craze, more like the 'in' thing. The original point I was addressing had to do with mcdojoism in the MMA. I was saying that anything that becomes extremely popular within the herd is going to experience mcdojoism. The fad part was meant to address the large portion of the herd that trains in MMA and supports UFC because it is the 'it' thing to do these days, wasn't trying to say that MMA and UFC themselves were a fad, although looking back at my posts, it sounds like that, so I am sorry for the misunderstanding.





Cool bro, I now understand where you’re coming from.

One point is that I seriously don’t believe that you can have MMA “McDojos”. I suppose you could, but the problem with that is, “performance” (just as with BJJ) or lack of performance cannot be hidden. Performance is always the goal and if people can’t perform, they’ll see it immediately. There are no katas or any other rituals to “hide skill behind”. In MMA/BJJ, you’re always working with a partner and there is very little solo stuff. Thus, performance is always the sought for objective.

Know where I see a lot of McDojo’s?? I see them with TKD schools. They are everywhere. I walk past one going into a grocery store and they are rarely paired up with each other. When they are, they’re doing extremely limited sparring. And I wouldn’t even call it sparring – I’d hate to denigrate the term!

I just don’t see how you could have MMA McDojos because the attitudes and philosophies underlying a McDojo are the antithesis of what MMA is about. I can’t see it spreading out, kudzu-like, in the way these ‘day care center’ TKD facilities are. There is one of those in just about every shopping complex in Anytown, USA.


Quote:


By fad, I meant that a vast majority of people are only interested in MMA because of the UFC or vice versa, and that once it is no longer considered the 'in' thing that they will move on to the next 'in' thing, talk about how it is the best thing in ma, then turn around and bad mouth MMA and UFC. You know, the whole 'would have you done for me lately?' thing.





That would be my HOPE! I can’t tell you how many folks have come to MMA by way of pro “wrestling”. There is just something not right about a 30 year old man watching pro wrestling. It would be the same as a 30 year old man having the same zeal for cartoon shows that a 10 year old might have for cartoons or comic books. Not that cartoons or comic books are bad things in and of themselves. But look into the audience the next time you’re hurriedly (hopefully you are hurrying) flipping past the wrestling show on your television. Look beyond the ring, into the faces and the eyes of the spectators. Observe the slightly crazed expressions on their faces….as they watch….the “fights”. Watch them on the edges of their seats. You would swear up and DOWN that they think it’s real.

Point being, those just aren’t the people you’re wanting to train MMA with. Unfortunately, there seem to be more of them than aren’t. So yeah, I HOPE it becomes less popular. I LONG for the “good ole days” when no one knew what we were doing and laughed at it, lol.



Quote:


This is similar to what happened to classical systems, and this is why I mentioned them. There was a time when they were the 'in' thing and they were at a level of popularity equal to that of the UFC and MMA, especially during the kung fu movie and ninja craze.





Idiots WILL follow a trend and not typically not be trend setters. That’s just because of intellectual laziness. I was doing this stuff 12 years ago. Some guys have just found out about it. It takes brain power to do research and to ferret out the truth. Some folks just want it handed to them. The lazy will always take whatever is placed in front of them.

I personally have never really been into the classical systems even though I have spent time in them. I haven’t done any training in classical systems now for nearly 16 years and that’s because I don’t agree with their training methods for the most part. Many times the training just isn’t athletic enough for my tastes. That’s why I continually sought out western martial arts where the emphasis WAS on athleticism and sparring. These factors are an integral part of MMA and BJJ. This ALONE will drive many away. In many respects, they are the antithesis of classical martial arts (not always however). The aliveness factor tends to separate the athletic gym from the rest. Most lazy people aren’t going to be heading in droves into gyms where aliveness and athleticism are the foundations of training. There is WAY too much work to do in those places and such training requires WAY too much physical conditioning. That is enough right there to keep them from becoming McDojos.


Quote:


Those styles became so popular that mcdojoism sprang up within them with a vengeance. So what is not a fad to me? The part of the martial arts community that practices martial arts irregardless of the flavor of day, the part that sticks with a style long after it has been abandoned by the superficial mainstream. Kinda like afros, some people only wore them because they were considered the 'in' thing to do at the time, some people wore them because they really liked them and they still wear them to this very day.





Dig that brother. I admire your philosophy and agree completely! To hell with the “Johnny Come Latelys”. But those folks are like all the new people at Golds Gym after New Years….give them a month and they’ll be back on their couches eating Haagen Daaz, lol.


Demonologist437 wrote

Quote:

My only problem with MMA is that it seems to have become another school of thought.

Why not just cut away all that "My style is..." or that "Style is..." or "I do not agree with that style because..." and just focus on what we know works; ignorant of where it came from?





And your point is? LOL! I’m kidding (not really). Seriously, what’s wrong with that??? Who cares about where it CAME from? It came from Japan or it came from Sudan – who CARES?! I don’t care if it came from NEPTUNE if it’s functional and works. How does knowing where it CAME from help me keep a guy from ramming his fist into my NOSE? If you can put those two things together, I’ll eat my hat, record it on video and throw it up on YOUTUBE for the world to see!

“Style” is nothing but an illusion anyway. There can truly be no different styles so long as each of us have the same physical structure. Until some three armed, four legged creature from Uranus crawls out (which I hope to GOD I never see), there won’t BE any different styles. So if this is true, what then becomes important is HOW you train.


Quote:


All martial artists must inevitably "Mix" in what they do with what another style would do. Otherwise, we will stay bound up in our repetitive patterns.

As the man said, we have only two hands and two feet. Why not talk to the other people around us and see what we find?





If you were to train completely alive from day one, you wouldn’t really need to talk to other people around you (although that would save time), you’d all eventually discover the same exact things.


Quote:


I do not despise the MMA, Karate, kata, or whomever else as somehow below me or doing something "horrible". I simply believe they are doing something different. I may disagree with their methods, but I do not have to hate them for it. I'll do what I'll do, they can what they will. My truth cannot be their truth, so I will not try to force it to them. If they ask me about ym truth, I will be honest. If they ask me about what I think of their truth, I will be honest and polite, because I do not feel the need to condemn. I am not holding myself as some saint of course, I am just saying as example.

Really, what are we here for?





I don’t hate others or their methods either. I merely don’t agree with many of the methods that I’ve seen and experienced. But that’s why I chose the path I do. I’m also not telling other people what to do or how to do it.

I am only providing my own points of view which you or anyone else are free to take or leave. THAT is what we’re here for.


-John

Top
#293704 - 01/18/07 10:32 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
John all you've merely said about arts like Aikido that it is unprobably and it is difficult, obstacles that can be overcomed through hard work. We can all agree your own personal effectiveness comes from HOW you train. And a training methodology can be applied to any art out there whether it be Aikido or Capoeira or Kungfu or Muay Thai.

In your previous post you said:
Quote:


If you were to train completely alive from day one, you wouldn’t really need to talk to other people around you (although that would save time), you’d all eventually discover the same exact things.



well here you go, two different arts but they eventually lead to the same thing. Its just that they chose different routes to get to the same destination. And honestly if an art has never worked then why would it exist?

Many people laugh at Capoeira but if you read the history the art was pretty brutal back then, with people dying and getting slashed up from machetes. Dangerous enough for Brasil to ban it. Is it not logical to say that Capoeira has proven its worth? or Muay Thai/Kungfu/Wrestling/Boxing/and whatever art you wanna throw in there.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293705 - 01/18/07 03:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
My point is and was, is that it is starting to look like you have MMA guys out there grading other arts based on MMA. Just like how all the other arts grade all the other arts based on whatever art they represent. That's what I meant by "School of Thought". Sorry it wasn't clearer.

My point is though I will openly admit I am most likely rather young in the martial arts compared to most of you, I still see something I think is eating away at us. That being, that fact we are starting to look like the world's religions in our little quarrels and quipping. Everybody's truth and training is gospel, and cannot be altered or adjusted in any way. Everybody's truth is right, and everybody else is just doing "something else". Everbody is always grading, why not just try to learn? Why not totally throw away all the titles and classifications?

But at any rate, as heated as the discussions may be, asking diehard adherents of whatever training method or system to question themselves and maybe cast off what they have so strongly adhered to is like bugging a Christian to join in a Pagan ritual spell.

Not gonna happen. So, instead of constantly bugging one another, why not just talk? Why not just ask what works for us, why we like it, and answer people's questions about it?

Maybe I'm just naive or idealistic.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

Top
#293706 - 01/18/07 04:34 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Demonologist437]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Id say idealistic. The truth is people often build an illusion around the things they enjoy. Since they do it, it must be THE WAY. You cant always expect a nice answer when you show someone that that isnt always the case.

As for Aikido and SJM, it isnt in MMA largely because it isnt allowed in competition. At least, IMO.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293707 - 01/18/07 10:47 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

As for Aikido and SJM, it isnt in MMA largely because it isnt allowed in competition. At least, IMO.



Yea thats what I mean. Most MMA schools out there teach the kind of MMA you would use if you were in the UFC or something. But MMA is more about ranges and training methods. I can take those training methodologies and apply them to other arts like Aikido. Its still MMA even though you might not look like Tito Ortiz when you're fighting. People have this image of MMA and what it should look like and what your training should consist of, most likely BJJ and Muay Thai. But MMA doesnt have to look like anything. It can look like whatever you want it to be.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293708 - 01/19/07 03:01 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I partially agree with that anyways. It isnt always going to look the same, but it isnt necessarily about using what you want. It still has to be applied to pressure testing.

The reason so many go for BJJ and Muay Thai is because so many have before them. Many people looked at Muay Thai as the best because its basically western boxing with knees and low level kicking. Elbows and headbutts already existed in western boxing. The thinking behind it is, if you could teach a boxer how to kick or block a kick, how would you strike him? The answer is, not very easily.

Then BJJ blew up. Some people knew about it, or had prior grappling knowledge but when UFC was won by gracie, many people just assumed that if you cant do BJJ, you are going to lose.

So of coarse these two would be paired together. The "best" striking method with the "best" grappling method. However, whenever someone is taking seperate systems, you have to be able to transition those things easily from one to another, and from one range to another. Good MMA teaches and emphasis on these transitions and postioning. Thats what really seperates them from someone just throwing a bunch of things together and calling it MMA.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293709 - 01/19/07 05:43 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote
Quote:

Most MMA schools out there teach the kind of MMA you would use if you were in the UFC or something. But MMA is more about ranges and training methods. I can take those training methodologies and apply them to other arts like Aikido.




Ok, I was with you right up until you mentioned aikido. Seriously, that art doesn’t cut the mustard for real fighting. Hell, many high ranking aikido guys have even admitted as much.

It all has to do with those standing wrist manipulations -- not very functional IMO.


Quote:


Its still MMA even though you might not look like Tito Ortiz when you're fighting. People have this image of MMA and what it should look like and what your training should consist of, most likely BJJ and Muay Thai. But MMA doesnt have to look like anything. It can look like whatever you want it to be.





MMA “looks” a certain way because folks have managed to distill methods that work against true resistance. Silat takedowns will NEVER work in MMA simply because they aren’t functional. Wrestling takedowns work because they ARE. Aikido isn’t seen because the tactics aren’t very high percentage when people are throwing haymakers. We should try to realize that form follows function, not the other way around.


Chen Zen wrote
Quote:

I partially agree with that anyways. It isnt always going to look the same, but it isnt necessarily about using what you want. It still has to be applied to pressure testing.





EXACTLY, and that is an excellent point that Cory brings up! Under pressure testing, many strategies fall by the wayside. One such is the aikido approach, etc. We need to understand that style is an illusion. So lets even FORGET about aikido for a moment. What does aikido consist of? That is primarily throws by way of wrist control. Not only that, but the manipulations are polished down to their bare essence leaving VERY little margin for error. That is a HUGE risk considering what’s at stake. The approach doesn’t work very well when you’re dealing with a worthy opponent throwing Tank Abbott style haymakers or, anyone with high school level wrestling and beyond.


Quote:


The reason so many go for BJJ and Muay Thai is because so many have before them. Many people looked at Muay Thai as the best because its basically western boxing with knees and low level kicking. Elbows and headbutts already existed in western boxing. The thinking behind it is, if you could teach a boxer how to kick or block a kick, how would you strike him? The answer is, not very easily.

Then BJJ blew up. Some people knew about it, or had prior grappling knowledge but when UFC was won by gracie, many people just assumed that if you cant do BJJ, you are going to lose.

So of coarse these two would be paired together. The "best" striking method with the "best" grappling method. However, whenever someone is taking seperate systems, you have to be able to transition those things easily from one to another, and from one range to another. Good MMA teaches and emphasis on these transitions and postioning. Thats what really seperates them from someone just throwing a bunch of things together and calling it MMA.





More excellent points. BJJ, boxing, muay Thai, wrestling, judo are all a part of the mix that is MMA for one very simple reason – they can be trained completely ALIVE. How quickly its forgotten that aliveness is the very quality that makes a fighter functional and capable of competing (read, “able to fight”). If your art is practiced alive, then obviously it can be included in MMA. If not, a person isn’t going to be able to fight, so really it’s a moot point anyway.


-John

Top
#293710 - 01/19/07 07:50 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Aikido may contain wrist manipulation as part of what they teach but that isnt the entire art. A main focus of Aikido is simply to use other people's force against them. Yes its definitely hard to train wrist locks alive but theres more to it than that. How about hte blocks and counters and arm/elbow manipulations?

Like I've said before theres a reason why the MA was created and is still around. Much of Aikido came from movement and techniques that were used by Samurai. Now whether or not people can find a way to use what they have learned from Aikido is a matter of how the train.

Train the right way and you'll get the right results.

What art you decide to train in really doesnt matter.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293711 - 01/19/07 08:45 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Remember...these are just my own points of view...


Quote:

A main focus of Aikido is simply to use other people's force against them.





Judo and wrestling do that and do it better. Why not just train those? I mean, why aikido? You don’t see aikido contests. But you do see judo and wrestling contests. There is a very important reason for this.


Quote:

Yes its definitely hard to train wrist locks alive but theres more to it than that. How about hte blocks and counters and arm/elbow manipulations?





Basic boxing handles defense better. In fact, you learn better defense in your first week of boxing than you will in YEARS studying aikido. Also, judo and wrestling handle arm and elbow manipulations better.

My point to this is, SHOW me, don’t TELL me. I’ve already SEEN and experienced boxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, judo AND aikido and there is no comparison. A competent BLUE belt in Brazilian jiu-jits would THROTLE the overwhelming majority of aikido blackbelts.

There is a reason why I have chosen to study the arts that I have – it’s because they are simply more better at producing results. Results are what I’m after and I’m after them quickly. I don’t want to have to wait 15 years to be functional at an art form to be able to use it. By the time I’ve spent fifteen years in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I’ll be light years ahead of another individual who has spent 15 years in aikido anyway. And again, there is a reason for that.


Quote:


Like I've said before theres a reason why the MA was created and is still around. Much of Aikido came from movement and techniques that were used by Samurai.






The samurai fought with a sword, not an empty hand. If he didn’t, he was a dead samurai.


Quote:


Train the right way and you'll get the right results.





That much we agree on.


-John

Top
#293712 - 01/20/07 06:16 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

well here you go, two different arts but they eventually lead to the same thing.




only if they train alive.

Top
#293713 - 01/20/07 11:22 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Well John the reason why you say these arts are "better" is beacuse of the way they train right? So if you train the right way any art is as effective as the next. And that I believe is true and so do you at the bottom of your last post.

I don't want to run this conversation in circles because it is more about training then it is about the art.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293714 - 01/20/07 05:03 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
If trained alive, what you'll notice are one of two things:

1. Whatever you're doing will be made more functional

2. Some things WILL out of necessity, have to be discarded because they are NOT practical no matter HOW much you train it.

In my opinion, aikido falls into the Number TWO category (and you guys can read that however you want to, lol)

Bottom line is, does it work for you with aliveness? If so, you don't need MY confirmation. But that is a HUGE question. First off, are you training aikido alive? Are you working it alongside boxing, wrestling and everything else that is already a big part of MMA.

I say that because some people "think" what they're doing is alive and it sometimes turns out NOT to be.

Happy training!


-John

Top
#293715 - 02/03/07 07:06 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Jones Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=master+wong+jkd
JKD grappling and other methods to approach MMA jkd wise

Top
#293716 - 02/11/07 03:19 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
RoninKurosawa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 37
Loc: United States
Well i'm not qualified as a martial artist of anything because i just learn whatever i think will work best in self defence. So my way isn't exactly a martial art in the traditional sense.

I'm definitly not in great shape like the mma guys are but i think the way i approuch fighting may or may not be similar. I would like to know what people think of my methods and if they would be similar to what you guys think mix martial arts should be.

The first thing i started learning was siu lim tao of wing chun after practicing that for awhile i read some books on jeet kuen do and realized that i should learn many different things to become better at self defence.

I quickly realized that tai ji wouldn't help self defence wise so i stopped doing it, don't get me wrong i think tai ji is great for your health but definitly should not be considered a fighting style not even chen tai ji. I still practice Qi gong for health and stress relief.

After that i became interested in something more practical but also having a strong philosophy so then i noticed bagua and i practiced some but didn't see the point of learning the whole form for lack of practical applications.

I practiced boxing techniques some which are great for alive training and quick reactions. Also no matter what martial art someone does i believe they should always have a heavy bag and light bag and should drill with basic techniques on it like jabs and crosses hooks are good to.

I saw muay thai fight and realized it was very practical so i try to incoperate that into my way.
I've also recently practice some simple techniques that are similar to some drills in xingyiquan.

I've studied on a few techniques from aikido and qin na but soon realized they would be very difficult to exercute in a self defence situation because of the complexities of small joint locking and complex throws. Allthough any simple and large joint locking could easily be applied in real life. as in the shoulder but of course you must be prepared for any reaction.

After trying alot of different stuff of my own accord this is the routines and drills i've come to practice. Everytime time i practice i do all of the things below.

Stretch out
1. Qigong
2. Siulimtao, wingchun first form
3. Catwalk with some palm changes in reverses, bagua
4. strait line drills techniques from Muai thai, Wing chun, boxing, and xingyiquan
5. Mutiple direction drills using similar techniques
6. Shadow boxing using practical techniques from many styles
7. Spar with others whenever possible in a safe envirnment
includes partial contact to full contact and full range sparring are important for any self defence
( i would do heavy bag and light bag training everyday but i currently do not have any punching bags allthough i will eventually get some )
Last but not least Stretch out again then take a shower.

I'm sure you all realized that i didn't mention grappling and i know that its important to train with grappling and ground work but i still have no experience in the grappling area or at least not when it comes to ground fighting, ground fighting is something i need to add to my routine in the future because its definitly important.

What i have found is that techniques from all these styles can help and work together for a practical self defence.

Adavantages
1. wingchun, direct and simple striking and blocking techniques with solid philosophy on guarding your center
2. bagua, catwalk with palmchange and reverse is very helpful for increaseing over all body speed and uniform body mechanics
3. xingyiquan, very useful for developing short range power
4. muay thai, important for learning simple techniques that use your whole body to defend and attack, very simple and powerful uses full body range for great defence and attack
5. boxing, is of course in my opinion something any self defence practioner should have a solid foundation in, its simplicity and aliveness keeps your oppenent guessing while its training makes your punches very powerful and fast

I know these are not the most eleborate or best ways to explain the advantages of using many different styles and techniques but i think i pointed out some things that people should look for in techniques for self defence.

In the end my way is a combination of all the things i've ever learned that seemed practical or could improve my self defence in some way.

I wrote all of this to illustrate my progress and changes of development in martial art, i think anyone that is interested in mix martial art or jeet kuen do may go through similar development in their own way.

My question regarding mix martial arts is if after reviewing my methods, Rather my way would be considered a mixed martial art ? and also do you all think that my methods are effective or at least in theory should be.
I guess i consider the way i fight mixed martial art but i'm wondering what other people think about my methods.

Top
#293717 - 02/11/07 05:31 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: RoninKurosawa]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

4. muay thai, important for learning simple techniques that use your whole body to defend and attack, very simple and powerful uses full body range for great defence and attack


I don't understand. Mind elaborating?

My training consist mainly of Karate, Muay Thai (new and old), Judo and wrestling.

1. Karate (Advanced striking techniques and Kata)
2. Muay Thai, my "core", all my instincts are from MT)
3. Judo, advanced clinch and effective "non-effort" throws.
4. wrestling. advanced clinch and effective throws and takedowns.

By non-effort, I mean the throws are more mechanic than strength based. Wrestling have some REALLY AWESOME strength based throws, for example suplex, elevated double-leg takedown, etc. Not only that, wrestling makes me a monster in no-gi clinch games. I love wrestling.

If you look at my fighting style in person, however, it looks more like a MT Judo fighter, but wrestling is very dominant in my grappling game.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#293718 - 02/11/07 02:07 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: RoninKurosawa]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
My, you have assembled a rich tapestry of martial methods. Do what works best for you. From reading your post, you are doing exactly that, so more power to you. I personally recommend that you should choose a base style and become competent in that, then you should learn other styles that specialize in the areas that your main style either doesn't emphasize as much or flat out doesn't address. Work from a base then add the other pieces to build your complete system. I say this because you want to avoid becoming a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, and you want to have a focal point so that you don't "get lost" in the myriad of methodologies that you explore. We are all mixed martial artists to a certain point. I trained in shotokan, Taekwondo, JKD, WC, Escrima, and a little bit of Aikido. I didn't do this intentionally, but the circumstances of moving around required me to do so or remain idle. I currently train traditional karate again, but you can definitely see the influences from the other styles that I trained in. I readily implement continuous movement, centerline principles/tactics, Yin Yang theory, and a host of other principles into my traditional karate training. I am a progressivist . Taison's base is Muay Thai, and my base is Shotokan. What is your base? Btw, You have a very nice training method, and it sounds like it would be a lot of fun to work out with you.


Edited by Katana83 (02/11/07 02:08 PM)
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

Top
#293719 - 02/12/07 01:18 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Katana83]
RoninKurosawa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 37
Loc: United States
Yes, i mentioned wing chun first because that is my base style or the core to my self defence i guess. I started training wing chun first and i still do seperately and also combined with other methods. So basicly wing chun is my foundation and the rest of the methods i use were to fill in anything wing chun lacked for me in self defence.

My style if you want to call it that would probably look like modified wing chun to most people, the main differences being that i include techniques that work from other styles and remove any technique that is unrealistic.
The other methods arn't just for techniques but also methods that help me improve a range of concerns like speed, reaction time, body mechanics, and fluidity. I also add many different methods so that i have many ways to view my self defence so that i can always improve it, and also so i can understand self defence from all angles.

Thanks for the feedback, i'll talk to you all later.

Top
#293720 - 05/14/07 09:14 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hi all,

I chose not to participate in this thread until I had a reasonable answer. I've also chosen not to follow along and read other peoples post so that my own post could represent my own thoughts unaltered by other perspectives. So I apologize in advance if what I say here is redundant from previous posts.

My point is short and simple.

One inadequacy of MMA training is that when people think MMA they think NHB, but in reality they are more likely thinking Sport and not real NHB. So when you have people who get involved with MMA schools and now feel they are superior and ready to take on any attack in a real self defense altercation, they end up sadly mistaken. Often people fail to see that there is a huge list of rules upon which NHB competition abides by in order to make it safe for competitors. Unlike street fighting where there are no rules. Then there is a split between traditionalist and MMA's. Traditionalist who only want to practice drills all day long without sparring, wrestling, ground fight, stick fighting or anything combative will lack street fighting ability. Opposed to the MMA guys who don't do any drills because they feel they don't need it, instead they focus completely on sparring. This is not as bad but it's close because these guys will eventually feel burnout, because you cant spar all the time. You need a balance between drilling and sparring, self perfection with self preservation. There are just some things that cannot be practiced with sparring, however, this does not mean they cannot be practiced for with proper drilling. Thanks guys, thats it.

_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#293721 - 05/14/07 10:34 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Tek -


With all due respect, while I see where you're coming from, it's obvious that you don't have a fully developed understanding of what MMA means, "sport" training is, or what sparring is actually like for most folks.

Also, MMA guys drill constantly, oddly enough.


-John

Top
#293722 - 05/15/07 01:41 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. I disagree as often we do Chen. I believe these technique should be taught in general but they are really important to field specific personnel. Granted if the techniques are complicated there is less chances of its being effectiveness. But if simple and direct it raises the chances for success. Most Police,Security and Military forces teache them. I closes my argument with that FACT.




2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation.

I disagree here also, Training is always better then no training. Even if just realizing immeadiately whats going on as a Warrior/Martial artist we learn to think while in pain, rather then being shocked and demolished wondering why is this happening to Me. You react attacking and seeking an exit. I agree that escape is the key and not standing and trying to win this fight. But fighting to make a exit.All is not lost if you trained to react purposely and forceful. The Military and Swat practice this also, its called a Tactical retreat.




3rd beef, Grappling. We have no argument here Grappling on the street is a no, no. Unless you just have to. Then its kinda like a pocketknife or a rifle of on camping trip, you don't need it until you really need it.



4th beef, Bruce Lee. he has made my job so hard that I won't say much about this subject. But will say he was one of the 1st to realize and present MMA to the general public in JKD as a theroy. But I really get tried of no skill people saying Bruce said "we should put gear on & go full out". I have to tell them he was not talking to YOU. Get some skills 1st.




5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic.

I will agree if your purpose is to use these short course as a base. But to take these principle and add them to your base I see nothing wrong with that. If you already have something that works I see nothing wrong with add to your arsenal.

Training is good Training as long as its close to being realistic.

Chen the Philosopher always starting trouble. Feeding on himself this time.

GREAT POST!! Good reading.


Edited by Neko456 (05/15/07 01:43 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#293723 - 05/15/07 05:56 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Chen

You may be right.

It just reads to me like problems with specific schools and certain people that teach MMA, proabably not inherent problems with MMA as a whole.

Probably.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#293724 - 05/16/07 03:22 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
For the record, from what I understand about Akido, it is Ueshiba's own version of Daito-Ryu. Daito-Ryu technically isn't a self-defense art(in that it is the single practioner against one, or at worst, a very small group of people) because it is a distillation of the bujutsu empty-hand fighting methods when the warriors were in armor and trying to support their unit.

So, in a snese Mr. Kogas is right about that.

Honestly, the way I look at it now as opposed to how I used to look at things when entrenched in my old training is that there really isn't such a thing as a "non-functional" martial art. Every "martial art" or "style" you see out there is just a segment of the totality. While certainly a weakness it still means, I would say, that in attempting to understand it in accordance with the other segments and the totality(fighting, athletic expression, you get it...) it can teach you something that can be used in accordance with what you know and make what you do more functional. And besides, by whose standards are we grading functionality? Somehting that works in the ring? In a spar? IN a street fight? According to a certain method/style? According to a single/group/organisation's standards? I'd say, it's fuinctional if you LEARN something by studying it, no matter how small or large. Every inch and advantage counts, in my book. Because then, you can learn to apply it.

So, MMA is just another segment of that totality; if you want to look at it that way. It will have it's own strengths and weaknesses in comparison to other "fighting arts", and it will draw the line in the sand that seperates what it thinks works and doesn't.

Now, I wouldn't say that means every single specific TECHNIQUE is important and infallible form every Martial Art. Technique is just something you're supposed to get beyond anyways, and it's already probably been hammered into the ground the deficiencies of the "And then, and then, and then..." method. Further, in my own opinions techniques simply exist until you get the idea. Walking aorund with a hundred different techniques in your head that you call your martial art, in my opinion, is not the way. Techniuqes are just static products of the ideas behind them that make up a "martial art", which as Bruce said numerous times is something we want to avoid.

Personally, I don't see any inadequacies in MMA. It's information and potential knowledge like the rest, so why start grading it according to the paper it comes wrapped in?


On a side note, I'd say the only problem with MMA, as in many arts, is not MMA but it's practioners. Everybody is all psyched up about how the Gracies or such-and-such dropped them, and you get young kids who go around and start challenging people, or telling them what the "real stuff" is. Happend to my old grandmaster, a Kempo master, and he dropped the three punks who "challenged" him. Not because, I'd say, of people's respective arts but simply because they were young, disrespectful punks to begin with before they started training anywhere.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

Top
#293725 - 07/18/07 02:17 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: cxt]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
so I return to the forums...wow this thread is still going on...and though I wish I could re-read all these posts I'm a bit too lazy and its late

so I think MMA training is beneficial! Its good for the soul, like chicken noodle soup. And just because the 3 letters MMA come up doesnt mean it will automatically mean 2 guys ending up on the ground. IT just means you learn to defend, attack and counter from all ranges (kicking, punching, clinch, & ground).

You can train in Karate all your life but you can still be training MMA.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293726 - 03/05/08 10:28 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.

2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.

3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.

4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.

5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.




I've never trained weapon disarms in MMA training.

If a multiple attacker scenario doesn't happen "face on" then you are really screwed anyway. The best thing that will help you in that situation is solid boxing, takedowns and groundfighting skills. But you are still probably screweed.

If you don't want to end up stuck on the ground (due to fear of buddies stomping you while you are down) then you had BETTER be a good groundfighter - because only good groundfighting skills are going to get you off of the ground and back on your feet.

If you don't have good groundfighting skills, you are not likely to get back on your feet.

The idea that you are just going to "stay on your feet even if he's a wrestler and he tries to take me down" is a fantasy.

Just like you will never learn to block punches so well that none of them hit you ever, you will never learn to defend takedowns so well that no one gets you down ever.

So you'd better know all three.

I rarely hear MMA schools advertise "all fights go to the ground" and "the ground is number one thing you gotta know" anymore. I guess some schools still say that stuff, but most modern MMA schools have evolved past that.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

Top
#293727 - 03/08/08 03:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: janxspirit]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Of course you arent going to stop every attempt at a takedown everytime but I do feel like a goo takedown defense is valuable and that being on your feet is most often the desire position. The main purpose of self defense is self preservation which means defense and escape. You have to be on your feet to escape. But, like you said, its important to have good ground skills as well, so you can get back to your feet.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293728 - 03/08/08 04:06 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I believe that MMA isn't so much a "style" as it is a training method. It's another tool like anything else. Just change the "rules" as you train to allow for different dynamics (or don't train with rules to begin with).

For example; we do a lot of Greco-Roman style pummeling/upper body wrestling. What we do to prepare for the "street" (I hate that term) is that one guy, or both will have a knife in his waistband and pull that at some point during the pummeling. His partner will have to sense and pick up on this and subsequently deal with this changing situation. Its a great drill if you've never done it before.

Thats just one small example. We can do the same thing in any other range, be-it stand-up or the ground.

What we've seen is that the same delivery system mechanics are required, with or without weapons or multiple opponents. It only has to be modified slightly for consistency throughout the categories (empty hand, weapons, multiples, etc).


-John

Top
#293729 - 03/11/08 02:05 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe that JKD is the thought process and MMA is the works of that process. With the exception of fingers and thrust to knee it as rule-less and as explosive a real fight. I mean there are rules but the fighters needs some kind of safety net, No stomping a down opponent, kneeing someone on all 4 or head butting.

I believe what sets these fighters apart is that their fitness level equals their vareity of techniuqes and their ability to perform them at different ranges.

I find its good news that some have incororated real world what if's in their training. As I find it very difficult to counter a person already hooked in from the back. You think its going to be RNC and its really a thorat sliced from ear to ear. Close in with a weapon leaves little options. Even in reverse he cuts you forearm muscle then stabs overhead catching you in the head or eye. SOL.


Edited by Neko456 (03/11/08 02:10 PM)

Top
#293730 - 03/11/08 03:01 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Neko456]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
http://www.mmascraps.com/2008/03/fight-quest-usa-episode-kajukenbo.html

This fight quest video tries to adress many of the issues talked about here
_________________________
Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

Top
#293731 - 03/12/08 11:20 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Neko456]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

I believe that JKD is the thought process and MMA is the works of that process. With the exception of fingers and thrust to knee it as rule-less and as explosive a real fight. I mean there are rules but the fighters needs some kind of safety net, No stomping a down opponent, kneeing someone on all 4 or head butting.

I believe what sets these fighters apart is that their fitness level equals their vareity of techniuqes and their ability to perform them at different ranges.

I find its good news that some have incororated real world what if's in their training. As I find it very difficult to counter a person already hooked in from the back. You think its going to be RNC and its really a thorat sliced from ear to ear. Close in with a weapon leaves little options. Even in reverse he cuts you forearm muscle then stabs overhead catching you in the head or eye. SOL.




I pretty much agree with all of this..for th emost part..
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

Top
#293732 - 03/18/08 07:21 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: janxspirit]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I believe that JKD is the thought process and MMA is the works of that process. With the exception of fingers and thrust to knee it as rule-less and as explosive a real fight. I mean there are rules but the fighters needs some kind of safety net,





Yes, rules are necessary for the relative safety of competitors. Oddly enough, many of them have to visit hospitals as it is to get checked out post fight.

However I hate making statements about rules. The rules angle is typically a moot point because they are always rules whenever ANYONE is training. Doesn't matter what style or method is being used, short of engaging in a real fight, there are always rules for the safety of the practitioners. Aren't there? Do we fully intend to put our training partners into hospitals during or after every training session? Of course we don't. Rules are in place to prevent that from happening.

MMA in this regard is no different than anything else and does at least reflect the chaos and intensity of a real altercation.

In my view, MMA is the sparring component for realistic MA training. If you're not sparring after all, you're not training. And if we're going to spar, would we want this to be as close to realistic as possible? Of course. According to the JKD concept, anything less would mean partiality to specific ranges.

Lets remember folks, MMA is really nothing more than mixed ranges. Its allowing for takedowns and continued ground fighting as opposed to having an artificial rule that disallows a clinch and keeps two combatants standing on their feet.

Top
#293733 - 03/25/08 05:20 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
Quote:


1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.





Then I ask you why are the police and military trained in disarms if they don't work? Simple they get trained in disarms because they do work. If its life or death which it often is when a weapon is drawn then you do what you have to to survive, which could mean giving up your wallet, running like hell which would be my first option, or trying to disarm the attacker so you can run.

All the other stuff you mention seems to be a complaint about the sport of MMA, which if you really look at it and see how they analyze it, has become stylized. Everyone trains the same way, using the same techniques.

Top
#293734 - 03/25/08 05:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: dicen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Then I ask you why are the police and military trained in disarms if they don't work? Simple they get trained in disarms because they do work.




*I'm just addressing this piece for the hell of it*
Another answer is because the training they get is terrible. I mean, ask practically ANY cop what he thinks about the training that he received. Most cops that I have spoken with tell me that the training they got would only get them killed.


Quote:


All the other stuff you mention seems to be a complaint about the sport of MMA, which if you really look at it and see how they analyze it, has become stylized. Everyone trains the same way, using the same techniques.




Thats because it HAS to be the same fundamentally. Otherwise without the available skill-sets, they would be killed.


-John

Top
#293735 - 03/26/08 02:31 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: dicen]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

Quote:



Then I ask you why are the police and military trained in disarms if they don't work? Simple they get trained in disarms because they do work.




From my studies,
Most dont work unless dealing with a complete idiot . Paul Vanuk and the German police did extensive practical research
in to knife disarms. The results are/ were on you tube somewhere. If I find them I will post them.

Quote:


If its life or death which it often is when a weapon is drawn then you do what you have to to survive, which could mean giving up your wallet, running like hell which would be my first option,





One of the reasons sprinting is good training.

Quote:


or trying to disarm the attacker so you can run.





How would you disarm an attacker? I suppose there are methods that might give that chance but I would realy like to see them.

Quote:


All the other stuff you mention seems to be a complaint about the sport of MMA, which if you really look at it and see how they analyze it, has become stylized. Everyone trains the same way, using the same techniques.




So more reason to dig into the past and try to find stuff they dont train to add to what is known to work.


Modern term

MMA = mixed martial arts.

Trad term

Different styles of karate & Judo & kung fu etc = A mixture of fighting arts which were given the names of art's .

Just as history rolled by more than likely elements of certain trad arts werent trained anymore, more than likely forgotten and certain fighting arts took on the roll of physical education.
.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/26/08 02:34 AM)

Top
#293736 - 03/26/08 04:32 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
More people have survived against a knife, gun, or multiple attacker situation then have been killed by them. Untrained people have successfully disarmed armed attackers. Multiple attackers have been fended off by a single individual. WHY DO PEOPLE INSIST THIS DOESN’T HAPPEN? Is it just to justify not training for these situations? Are they just so set in their beliefs that they can’t accept reality?

Martial arts training does not guarantee that you will overcome all challenges but it does increase your odds and gives more options.

Top
#293737 - 03/26/08 04:43 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: everyone]
Novum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 58
Loc: New England
Just addressing the military and paramilitary use of weapon disarms really quickly. If someone pulls a gun on a cop it's not going to be the officer's option to give up his wallet and run away, thats just not how it works. Sure theoretically he could just roll over and be completely submissive and eventually get away, but if an officer is being held at gun point he is expected to be able to take care of it himself. Its just in their heads like that. For civilians, yes absolutely the best way to avoid getting shot is to do what is asked of you and hope for the best, but disarms exist for the people who probably won't be voluntarily released. *inputs two cents*
_________________________
Therefore we are not justified in saying that all reality is in perfect agreement and harmony.

Top
#293738 - 03/26/08 06:22 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: everyone]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Wanna disarm a knife? It wouldn't be my first choice.

*warning graphic images*

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3


Train real hard!

Top
#293739 - 03/26/08 07:15 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
My God. I wish I had've known what I was going to be looking at before I clicked the link. Then again, you did warn me
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

Top
#293740 - 03/27/08 09:41 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
These are perfect examples of why a person should learn knife disarms. Yes, run away if you can but prepare for the worst. People DO survive knife attacks. Train and increase your odds of survival.

The people in the photos don't appear to have been trying to disam. One had slices accross their back and another had their throat cut, the third may have tried to defend themself?? Were you trying to show knives are dangerous? Yes they are. Should we just train to fight fair fights? If you train for MMA, then the answer is yes. Just train to fight a single individual that is approximately the same size and is trained in a simular way and plays by the same rules.

There is nothing wrong with training for MMA as a sport. It has a lot of application to self defense. Just don't justify not training against multiple attackers and armed assailents by saying "well, you can't survive that anyways"

Top
#293741 - 03/27/08 02:09 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: everyone]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Everyone -

I'm a believer in dying with my boots on as much as anyone. I just threw those pictures up to remind people of what reality looks like considering that so many, so often, take vacations FROM it -- particularly with regard to martial art.

In MY opinion, I can think of SO many things better to spend my time with than knife disarms. Not that I think it's worthless to do, but because I think its easier to avoid situations which might cause you to be attacked with knives and guns to BEGIN with. See my point?

Seriously, if being attacked by someone with a knife is a grave concern, spending time training disarms puts you behind the curve. What that means is, there are probably other areas of your life that should be prioritized that may not be.

If I have to fight my way into and out of my neighborhood everyday, I think I'd be looking for a new neighborhood than developing my disarm skills. Just me.

-John

Top
#293742 - 03/27/08 02:46 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
John,

You are right that it is easier to avoid situations where you have to defend yourself. Be it against a gun, knife or fists. I would never go into any type of fight without exhausting all other reasonable options. People get killed in fistfights too. So I avoid all fights but train for all (within reason) situations. Maybe I'm wasting my time training for something I may never and don't want to have to use. (Maybe I just train because I like to train.) I never had to defend against a weapon and hopefully never will. If I do, I feel that I have an advantage, because of my training, that may keep me alive.

There is nothing wrong with training only for the sport of it. Martial sports training will be very benificial in a self defense situation. Just not beneficial as training for self defense.

Top
#293743 - 03/27/08 04:01 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

spending time training disarms puts you behind the curve. What that means is, there are probably other areas of your life that should be prioritized that may not be.





John, I always enjoy another opportunity to attempt to help come in out of the rain.

The problem with what you are saying is it smacks a little bit of that would never happen to me.

While the odds say, you are probably right, bad things happen to good people and you don't have to do anything wrong to wind up in a bad situation.

If self defense is something you train for, not dealing with the prospect of guns or knifes or bats etc, is a bit naive IMO. Especially if you are the type of person who uses good judgement to prevent altercations before they begin.

No one worth listening to is going to tell anyone to engage a person with a weapon if running is an option, your car, your money whatever is not worth even attempting to combat a person much less a weapon.

BUT should that not be an option, or your choice and you have to defend yourself, having a plan is not a had idea at all.

Disarms don't work....people love to say that. I hate absolute statements like that because they are almost never true. Disarms are techniques and they are as good or bad as the person teaching/training them.

I thought a great example of this was Jason on Human weapon when he had to deal with a knife. He tried a kick, missed and put the guy in a clinch and got stabbed 8-10 times.

I think we can all admit he is a well conditioned and trained fighter, but he had no answer for the weapon. Would he have faired better with disarm or knife defense, maybe, maybe not but he certainly couldn't have done any worse.

Most weapon defenses that I know are simple, effective and a "plan". Just like a boxer that enters the ring with a stance, guard and a plan of how he is going to combat his opponent.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

Top
#293744 - 03/28/08 07:58 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Disarms don't work....people love to say that. I hate absolute statements like that because they are almost never true. Disarms are techniques and they are as good or bad as the person teaching/training them.






Most of the ones I would consider a waste of time and an illusion. Might be interesting to start a thread on useless and usefull dis arms.
Jude

Top
#293745 - 04/28/08 04:13 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
So....we've come to the conclusion that there are few real inadequacies to mma training?

Top
#293746 - 04/28/08 07:08 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

So....we've come to the conclusion that there are few real inadequacies to mma training?




I suppose when people include running as part of the training and perhaps feel they arent spending enough time on it.
Then it looks like the weapons discussion might give the motivation to consider increasing the time spent on running and perhaps sprint training.

Runner being chased by attacker should = runner gets away.

Maybe MMA trainers to cross train with some form of simple self defence weapons training. If they dont already do it.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/28/08 07:31 PM)

Top
#293747 - 09/04/08 01:17 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
DojiSan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts people! We ALL practice MMA! If you are learning tae kwon do, you use kicks that other arts use, like round kicks which the muay thai use. If you punch, then maybe you punch the same as a boxer. MMA is a super set of all martial arts. That is why its called Mixed Martial Arts. The MMA you see on TV, like the UFC, is just a small subset of this super set! So of course there will be limitations on what it can do because it is only a subset!

Top
#293748 - 09/04/08 02:59 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: DojiSan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

MMA = Mixed Martial Arts people! We ALL practice MMA! If you are learning tae kwon do, you use kicks that other arts use, like round kicks which the muay thai use. If you punch, then maybe you punch the same as a boxer. MMA is a super set of all martial arts. That is why its called Mixed Martial Arts. The MMA you see on TV, like the UFC, is just a small subset of this super set! So of course there will be limitations on what it can do because it is only a subset!




Maybe in the land of rainbows and lollipops,but not all arts are mma at all by definition of MMA.

TKD is a style, Goju is a style, MMA is not a style.

This is a commonly accepted definition of MMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#cite_note-slate-0
Quote:

Mixed martial arts (MMA) is term used for no-holds-barred, full contact, combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.




_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#293749 - 09/04/08 05:13 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: BrianS]
DojiSan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Quote:

Quote:

MMA = Mixed Martial Arts people! We ALL practice MMA! If you are learning tae kwon do, you use kicks that other arts use, like round kicks which the muay thai use. If you punch, then maybe you punch the same as a boxer. MMA is a super set of all martial arts. That is why its called Mixed Martial Arts. The MMA you see on TV, like the UFC, is just a small subset of this super set! So of course there will be limitations on what it can do because it is only a subset!




Maybe in the land of rainbows and lollipops,but not all arts are mma at all by definition of MMA.

TKD is a style, Goju is a style, MMA is not a style.

This is a commonly accepted definition of MMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#cite_note-slate-0
Quote:

Mixed martial arts (MMA) is term used for no-holds-barred, full contact, combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.









hmmmm.I guess I was looking at the more general definition. Yes, it's not a style, its the use of different styles just with rules in the ring. I was thinking of it in the original sense that the Gracie Family defined it when they first started the UFC, one octagon, no rules and you can use any type of styles, you can even "mix" and use different styles together!

Top
#293750 - 09/04/08 01:59 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Kravinatrix Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 52
Loc: ESSEX
Quote:


1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense.
Quote:


Krav Maga has many weapon disarms and is a functional form of self defence. How can you say all krav maga schools have the wrong idea about self defence.

Top
#293751 - 09/05/08 05:43 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Kravinatrix]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I didnt say it, but lets be real. It only takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger. No technique in the world is faster than a bullet.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293752 - 09/05/08 07:20 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I didnt say it, but lets be real. It only takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger. No technique in the world is faster than a bullet.




Training to get stabbed and shot is a bad idea.

I'm all for weapons training on how to use them,but facing an armed attacker and pretending to have the advantage is movie fantasy.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#293753 - 09/06/08 02:38 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Kravinatrix Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 52
Loc: ESSEX
Although its unlikely for a gun disarm to work, i still think the small likelyhood is enough that it should be at least trained.
Someone high on drugs or someone who has consumed a lot of alcohol may have his reaction speed slowed down.
They may not be paying 100% attention there may be other people there glancing at for a second bystanders or other potential hostages which may give you the crucial milisecond to move out of the line of fire and start a technique.
Gun shots arent always fatal, you may not be able to move completely out of the line of fire in the time it takes them to pull the trigger, but you may be able to move vital targets out of the way and take a wound somewhere else then procede with a disarming technique.

I think as everything else does it really depends on the situation. If someone intends to kill you anyway then going along with it will end up with you killed, at least if you try you have a small chance.

Top
#293754 - 09/07/08 10:36 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Kravinatrix]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Although its unlikely for a gun disarm to work, i still think the small likelyhood is enough that it should be at least trained.





As much as it would work,it should be trained, very little. How about hand grenade disarms?

Quote:

Someone high on drugs or someone who has consumed a lot of alcohol may have his reaction speed slowed down




A drunk high on drugs with a gun? Is he a 7ft bodybuilder as well? Be realistic, unless you are in law enforcement what are the chances you are going to have to face this type of threat?

Quote:

They may not be paying 100% attention there may be other people there glancing at for a second bystanders or other potential hostages which may give you the crucial milisecond to move out of the line of fire and start a technique




You are counting on alot of what if's my friend.

Quote:

Gun shots arent always fatal, you may not be able to move completely out of the line of fire in the time it takes them to pull the trigger, but you may be able to move vital targets out of the way and take a wound somewhere else then procede with a disarming technique.






LOL!! Are you friggin kidding me?

"Sensei will now shoot you in the arm,then you practice your gun disarm!!"

Quote:

I think as everything else does it really depends on the situation. If someone intends to kill you anyway then going along with it will end up with you killed, at least if you try you have a small chance.




I'll just let them have my wallet,keys, car,dog,etc..
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#293755 - 09/08/08 04:43 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
ChenZen,

If these are the inadequecies of MMA training, then MMA fighters should feel plenty confident.

The main issues you raise, that of fighting armed and multiple opponents, are the all-time worst case scenarios anyone can face. No martial art on earth can prepare someone to face these two contingencies with much confidence. If MMA training is "inadequate" in these areas, so is every other MA.

However, I agree that instant self-defense is a con job, and a dangerous one at that.

Top
#293756 - 09/09/08 08:28 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Kravinatrix]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
I need to make fun of something, and your post was perfect.

Quote:

Although its unlikely for a gun disarm to work, i still think the small likelyhood is enough that it should be at least trained.



why bother? youd be a dumbass to try. theyd just shoot you lol

Quote:

They may not be paying 100% attention there may be other people there glancing at for a second bystanders or other potential hostages which may give you the crucial milisecond to move out of the line of fire and start a technique.



your a doofus

Quote:

but you may be able to move vital targets out of the way and take a wound somewhere else then procede with a disarming technique.



man is that a f***ing joke? thats the lamest/funniest thing ive seen all week. A gunshot would floor you. Being stupid enough to try and take the gun, thus leading to the gunshot, is just dumb. If your in that situation, your screwed. Dont get in it

Quote:


I think as everything else does it really depends on the situation. If someone intends to kill you anyway then going along with it will end up with you killed, at least if you try you have a small chance.



yeah because that happens alot hey like when we get kidnapped by gangsters every weekend. Thatll come in handy.

once again, your a doofus

Top
#293757 - 09/09/08 01:12 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: TheCrab]
Kravinatrix Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 52
Loc: ESSEX
These are just single examples, not a whole collection of what ifs, im just saying that drugs or alcohol could be a factor.
If the guy is going to kill you anyway you might aswell try.
70% of all gunshot wounds are in the limbs and non fatal.
Hand Grenades lol? Krav Maga does contain a defence against microexplosives.
I agree with Brian S in that as much as it would work it should be trained, which is very little.
However I dont think any area of defence should be overlooked, there are many more likely scenarios which you should train for.
The amount of gunshot wounds treated in hospital are much higher then the amount of homicides commited wih a firearm.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm

The fact is there are people in professions such as law enforcement who would be more likely to encounter these situations.

Top
#293758 - 09/13/08 09:19 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Kravinatrix]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Hand Grenades lol? Krav Maga does contain a defence against microexplosives




Which is exactly why I QUIT Krav. I'm not a soldier, so if i'm dealing with grenade or a microexplosive, I am REALLY in the bad part of town - NOT GOOD SELF DEFENSE.

Top
#293759 - 09/14/08 12:45 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Wait...

Krav deals with... explosives?

SIGN ME IN!!! SIGN ME IN!!!

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#293760 - 09/27/08 12:20 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: fileboy2002]
v_sho_v Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 3
What about Aikido? Randori is there to train, and test your ability to defend against multiple people.

Top
#293761 - 09/28/08 01:12 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: v_sho_v]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Aikido randori is too over-compliant.

Basically they'll just run towards you and ukemi as you turn towards them. I can do that too!

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#293762 - 10/19/08 07:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I think the biggest issue I have with the MMA stuff is that it was popularized by the UFC. The UFC is a tournament that the Gracies still owned and wrote the rules for when they were winning it. The whole thing is a flawed experiment in that it is designed to favor a specific style.
As far as weapons disarms, I don't think anybody does that better than the U.S. Special Warfare men. They use a lot of psychology and such. SEALs have been known to walk up to someone across a room and peel a gun from someone's hand.
I don't think it's cool to talk down Bruce Lee though.
Jeet Kune Do had many flaws, but the early Jun Fan was better. What Jesse Glover teaches is ridiulously effective. The true push hands drills taught in this system are better than those in Wing Chun. The grappling is excellent. The punches are the best there is.
Bruce Lee gets talked down a lot because few martial artists have experienced his original style. They only know about him what they see in movies, which is far from the reality.
So many people think JKD was an evolution, but I do not think the JKD system was as good as Jun Fan.

Top
#293763 - 10/20/08 02:14 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Taison]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

Aikido randori is too over-compliant.

Basically they'll just run towards you and ukemi as you turn towards them. I can do that too!

~Donnie




I think the point is that the concept of Aikido Randori is a good one. Yea sure many times its not executed properly so the result is just a bunch of guys tumbling around. But if you really carry out the exercise to its potential then it can do a lot in terms of training you against multiple opponents.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293764 - 10/21/08 12:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: v_sho_v]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
v_sho-v,

I have said lots about aikido on this board already and don't want to open that can of worms again. Suffice it to say that, in my opinion, aikido is to martial arts what homoepathy is to modern medicine.

Top
#293765 - 10/21/08 09:33 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I think the biggest issue I have with the MMA stuff is that it was popularized by the UFC. The UFC is a tournament that the Gracies still owned and wrote the rules for when they were winning it.





The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up? And by the way, they are STILL "winning" it, so to speak.



Quote:


The whole thing is a flawed experiment in that it is designed to favor a specific style.




Which style is that?


Quote:


Jeet Kune Do had many flaws, but the early Jun Fan was better. What Jesse Glover teaches is ridiulously effective. The true push hands drills taught in this system are better than those in Wing Chun. The grappling is excellent. The punches are the best there is.





Doesn't matter what Jesse or anyone else teaches. What matters is what YOU can DO. THAT is what makes a system what it is. Original or extra crispy JKD makes no difference to me. You can stand in a strong side forward lead all day in HONG KONG and it won't matter if you...can't...fight.


Quote:


Bruce Lee gets talked down a lot because few martial artists have experienced his original style. They only know about him what they see in movies, which is far from the reality.





He gets talked down about because he was a movie star and not a fighter. He WAS however a great thinker, but then again, he really didn't come up with anything new. He took what was already good and added them together...kinda like MMA. In other words, boxing with wing chun, etc.


Quote:


So many people think JKD was an evolution, but I do not think the JKD system was as good as Jun Fan.




So which JKD or Jun Fan are you referring to? The Seattle era, the Oakland era, or the LA era? Each was different because Lee was evolving......

..oh wait, you just implied that JKD was NOT evolving, even though it clearly was.

What were you trying to say again?



-John

Top
#293766 - 10/23/08 06:50 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I'm sorry that is not correct. When Bruce added the concept of the constant forward pressure to the chi sao drills, that was an innovation. And in my opinion, one of his best innovations.

Top
#293767 - 10/23/08 10:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
What wasn't correct?

Top
#293768 - 10/26/08 12:48 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
"but then again, he really didn't come up with anything new. He took what was already good and added them together..."
This is an incomplete or incorrect statement. He improved the original techniques. Adding forward pressure to chi sao improved it. It took it beyond merely piecing things together. That approach is why JKD is no longer what it was intended to be. The superior method is to figure out WHY something works, and if it can be made better. The next step after that is figuring out if you can apply the PRINCIPAL to other techniques.
Using grappling as an example: If something works on the thumb, the same leverage works on the wrist, the elbow, etc.
Also, the Gracies co-founded the UFC and wrote the original rules, with their student, Art Davie.

Top
#293769 - 10/26/08 02:14 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

He improved the original techniques. Adding forward pressure to chi sao improved it. It took it beyond merely piecing things together. That approach is why JKD is no longer what it was intended to be.





That’s YOUR opinion. Make sure you include that. I disagree completely. I think you miss the entire point of why Lee felt JKD needed to be created to begin with (to free people from form and “way”).


Quote:


The superior method is to figure out WHY something works, and if it can be made better. The next step after that is figuring out if you can apply the PRINCIPAL to other techniques.
Using grappling as an example: If something works on the thumb, the same leverage works on the wrist, the elbow, etc.




I don’t disagree with that, but this wasn’t any point I was arguing with. It’s a separate issue.


Quote:


Also, the Gracies co-founded the UFC and wrote the original rules, with their student, Art Davie.





And your point is?

Top
#293770 - 10/26/08 04:36 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
The point is you said:
"The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up?"
Which was entirely incorrect. Rorion Gracie wrote the rules of the UFC. It was biased from the start. That is the greatest inadequacie of the UFC.
My comment on Bruce Lee's improvement of chi sao is more than an opinion, it is based in physics. If you think I am stuck on techniques over principles then you missed the point of everything I said.
Look, I'm not going to argue just for the sake of arguing.
That's for people who need to 'win' to feel superior.
If that's what you're into then fine, you win. I hope that gives your life some value.

Top
#293771 - 10/26/08 08:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

The point is you said:
"The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up?"
Which was entirely incorrect.





I don't think you're reading it correctly. Check again. I said; "The Gracies HAVE nothing to do with the UFC...." Meaning, that they are not involved in the event any longer. They haven't been involved in the event for YEARS because Rorion sold his part of it a long time ago. The Fertittas own it now. They've owned it for a long time and, as I said, the Gracies have nthing to do with the UFC, why bring them up?


Quote:


Rorion Gracie wrote the rules of the UFC. It was biased from the start. That is the greatest inadequacie of the UFC.





Biased in favor of whom? You've not made that clear. All YOU are doing is throwing innuendos up without explaining what you mean. Stop beating around the bush and lay it all out man.


Quote:


My comment on Bruce Lee's improvement of chi sao is more than an opinion, it is based in physics. If you think I am stuck on techniques over principles then you missed the point of everything I said.





First of all, who cares a whit about chi sao? Chi sao doesn't even work againt high school wrestling. Whats the point that you're trying to make?


Quote:


Look, I'm not going to argue just for the sake of arguing. That's for people who need to 'win' to feel superior.
If that's what you're into then fine, you win. I hope that gives your life some value.






Dude, an internet forum exists FOR intelligent debate. I'm not afraid to because I know my arguments will hold water. If you're not as certain, feel free to decline. Don't like heat, stay away from the kitchen.

Look, if you weren't making innuendos about "sport" training and fighting (which is comical) we might find that we actually agree on some things. But the only bias about the UFC is your own. Until you're willing to come clean about that, we probably won't get very far because you'd be unwilling to deal with certain truths.

So come on back, stop bs'ing and beating around the bush, and get to your points. It's all cool.

Top
#293772 - 10/27/08 03:19 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
dam John, you going to let him survive this thread?

As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.

But if your talking about the drill in WC then thats a different story. I'm talking about the actual sticking of hands. I practice chi sao all the time in Mantis but its not practiced the same as in WC, which to me only isolates it to 1 single excercise. Most of the drills I've done involve chi sao just because of the whole sensitivity & control thing I mentioned.


whats this have to do with MMA being inadequate?
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293773 - 10/27/08 06:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I am fine with intelligent debate, but I will NOT participate in "My dad is bigger than your dad" chest puffery when it is an obvious case of it's better to agree to disagree, which is where that seemed to be going.
If that's not the case then I will continue.
My points were pretty clear. I've been against the UFC from the start. The Gracies wrote in an extra soft ground covering. It's like kicking in soft sand. Obviously giving ground fighters an advantage.
And if you remember Ken Shamrock's first fight, they wrote a new rule DURING THE FIGHT, that said Shamrock couldn't kick because he was wearing soft shoes.
That pretty much sealed my opinion of the UFC. Biased? Probably. But I have studied BJJ privately with a brown belt instructor who was very good. I like BJJ for some purposes.
I never beat around any bushes. I am very blunt.
I have trained with some of the best martial artists in the world, including oe of the top two guju intructors. When I first experienced Jun Fan as taught by Jesse Glover, it made everything else look like kindergarten. That's all there is to it. You can have a different opinion, but how you word that opinion is what makes a difference.
As they say "You gots to give respect to gets respect."


Edited by berserkerofdeath (10/27/08 06:54 PM)

Top
#293774 - 10/27/08 06:52 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I never once said chi sao doesn't work. I said the Jun Fan method of chi sao is better than the Wing Chun method of chi sao.
I can't explain the physics of why this works better than Jesse did. I will try though.
With the Jun Fan method, forward pressure is constant. It's like building up the gas pressure in a gun. The second the opponent lets up on that pressure, you are inside like a bullet. This is simplified a great deal. There is also tying them up and many other variations. And of course, the pressure is a principle, and not a specific technique. To me, that makes it superior to a simple memorized movement.
I hope that's clear.
The following IS my opinion.
I believe that Bruce Lee from the late 60's would do very well against a modern fighter. To say the least. Having experienced many different martial arts at the hands of very masterful practitioners, I have not found the early Jun Fan methods and ideas to be in the least bit outdated.


Quote:

As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.

But if your talking about the drill in WC then thats a different story. I'm talking about the actual sticking of hands. I practice chi sao all the time in Mantis but its not practiced the same as in WC, which to me only isolates it to 1 single excercise. Most of the drills I've done involve chi sao just because of the whole sensitivity & control thing I mentioned.


whats this have to do with MMA being inadequate?



Top
#293775 - 10/27/08 06:59 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
berserk...I was actually commenting on John's post saying that chi sao wouldnt even work in highschool wrestling, when the case is that I find chi sao to be VERY helpful when dealing with grappling situations because it forces you to make contact unlike striking. It was the first things I noticed when I took a BJJ class because when you're in guard you have to get past or disable your opponents hands so that you can work your game, I didnt really have to look or think too hard because I sensed it all already. Of course I'm saying this based on my own experience & no one elses.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293776 - 10/27/08 07:28 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote:

Quote:

dam John, you going to let him survive this thread?





That will be completely up to him. Bring a credible argument that contains something other than bias and he might get somewhere. Otherwise I believe most folks can read between the lines and see such arguments for what they are. So yeah, it's up to him whether he survives here. Odds aren't great though, lol.


Quote:


As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.





I understand what you're saying. I just think there are better ways of training. Pummeling for instance. Ever notice the lack of chi-sao in most wrestling practice? Probably a good reason for that. I doubt you'll be seeing Greco-Roman wrestlers adding chi-sao to their routines anytime soon. Of course I could be wrong. The reason is because of the elbows being away from the body. That's just bad form. But hey, that's just my opinion.



berserkerofdeath wrote
Quote:

I am fine with intelligent debate, but I will NOT participate in "My dad is bigger than your dad" chest puffery when it is an obvious case of it's better to agree to disagree, which is where that seemed to be going.





Don't know about chest puffing. I'm fine with sticking with facts. Just make sure you do so yourself.


Quote:


My points were pretty clear. I've been against the UFC from the start. The Gracies wrote in an extra soft ground covering. It's like kicking in soft sand. Obviously giving ground fighters an advantage.





Check this video out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDWVDQfybgw

Note the tile flooring. The point? Don't think for a minute that they choose a safe flooring because they were AFRAID of being hurt. In most cases, who is going to be one to suffer most because of the surface, a grappler or a person who isn't a grappler? I'd bet that all of the people the Gracie's have taken down and beaten up, were pretty grateful for any form of soft surface they might have fallen upon.

And if I'm correct, that isn't the same surface that's still in use. However from last check, there's still plenty of ground fighting going on. So whats your point about this?


Quote:


And if you remember Ken Shamrock's first fight, they wrote a new rule DURING THE FIGHT, that said Shamrock couldn't kick because he was wearing soft shoes.
That pretty much sealed my opinion of the UFC.





What UFC was that by the way? Like UFC 3 or something held way back in the 90's? You do realize it's 2008 right?


Quote:


Biased? Probably.





I'd say there's no question about it!


Quote:


But I have studied BJJ privately with a brown belt instructor who was very good. I like BJJ for some purposes.





Like everyone else in this modern age. A person interested in functional fighting ability would leave a tremendous hole in his game to NOT study BJJ in this day and time.



Quote:

I never beat around any bushes. I am very blunt.





That's all we ask.



Quote:


I have trained with some of the best martial artists in the world, including oe of the top two guju intructors. When I first experienced Jun Fan as taught by Jesse Glover, it made everything else look like kindergarten.





Wonderful for you.


Quote:


That's all there is to it. You can have a different opinion, but how you word that opinion is what makes a difference.
As they say "You gots to give respect to gets respect."





Fine, just remember your own words.

Top
#293777 - 10/27/08 07:44 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

I understand what you're saying. I just think there are better ways of training. Pummeling for instance. Ever notice the lack of chi-sao in most wrestling practice? Probably a good reason for that. I doubt you'll be seeing Greco-Roman wrestlers adding chi-sao to their routines anytime soon. Of course I could be wrong. The reason is because of the elbows being away from the body. That's just bad form. But hey, that's just my opinion.




I feel like we've had this conversation before, haha

I'm not speaking of chi sao as a drill like it is in WC (many different ways to practice sticking, I also like sticking but I dont think I would like practicing it like it is in WC). I'm speaking of it as an acquired skill, something that many grapplers would appreciate if you can explain it right. Learning to stick (most chinese training methods at least) don't involve much energy while wrestlers do require massive amounts of strength. Theres an emphasis on the "ju" or gentle. You stick to gain position & to control, all done with little effort.

However, techniques like pummeling also have their place when the situation presents itself.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#293778 - 10/27/08 11:47 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
"Odds aren't great though, lol."

See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. If you want an intelligent debate then act like it. Sarcasm and the like are hardly intellectual in nature. It's bateing, and it should be beneath a martial artist.

Yes they have switched the ground covering. They've also added weight classes and many other things. That's why strikers do better now than they used to. My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.
Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts. Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.

What exactly are YOU trying to say?

So far, all you have done is question my statements, without any sort of actual documentation or reason at all.
I make a statement, you say you don't like my statement.
That's been our entire interaction. Intellectual debate implies a discourse. It means you posit a theory, and then support that theory. If you are simply saying I am wrong, then what is the better theory that you are countering it with?


Edited by berserkerofdeath (10/27/08 11:55 PM)

Top
#293779 - 10/28/08 12:52 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
This is not debate, it is argument. It is unproductive, and a waste of time.
My point has been clearly stated. It is there for posterity.

Top
#293780 - 10/28/08 05:15 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
berzerker,

Did you mean the top Goju instructors? Who were they?

I agree with you about mainstream mma. They shouldn't allow certain behaviors to continue,but there are good respectable guys in there like GSP, Couture, Anderson Silva, etc..

It's all about marketing and ratings(money), that's what has ruined it all.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#293781 - 10/29/08 06:38 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. If you want an intelligent debate then act like it. Sarcasm and the like are hardly intellectual in nature. It's bateing, and it should be beneath a martial artist.





berserkerofdeath, I don't think that IExcalibui2 was really arguing with you (I could be wrong) and may be getting he and I confused. Slow down and take your time.


Quote:


Yes they have switched the ground covering. They've also added weight classes and many other things. That's why strikers do better now than they used to. My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.
Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts. Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.





Hold the phone bro. I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding many of these issues. So before you lambaste me, give it time here to fully comprehend all of our viewpoints.

Yes, the UFC is a "sport", but that makes it too easy to write-off don't you think? Now I'm not sure if that's what your intention is or not, so perhaps you could clarify.



Quote:


What exactly are YOU trying to say?




Who are you addressing here? IExcalibui2 or me? I'm just making sure that we don't get confused. However, what I or anyone else here is trying to say, may be something that is better obtained through taking time and looking at the big picture here, from a continuous discussion. That's something not easily answered in a paragraph.


Quote:


If you are simply saying I am wrong, then what is the better theory that you are countering it with?





First of all, I'm not simply saying that you're wrong. I can't say either way until I know what it is you're trying to say. That's been my only purpose in conversing with you so far. I'm still trying to figure out what you're saying.

So far is seems on the surface to be another "sport" is bad, "street" is good argument. People have downplayed the UFC for years, for reasons that were often asinine. So far your arguments have been about the padding and the like, which we've heard before from people simply trying to put grapplers down or, place them into a box. Which quite simply, is stupid. Usually these arguments come from people who can't grapple. Not saying this is you, just making the point.

So before I make statements about what my beliefs are (which again, may not entirely be dissimilar to your own), I'm still trying to see where you stand on things.

It just strikes me as odd that someone would come onto a forum in 2008 and start talking about Royce Gracie, who hasn't been a factor in years, or an era of the UFC that's been long since vanished. Immediately, you were making negative implications about the Gracies and the UFC. What the hell are we supposed to think here?


By the way, I ALSO agree with you about mainstream MMA. Give yourself a chance here to get the full picture.

Top
#293782 - 10/29/08 01:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
BoD -

Quote:

My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.




Your facts are terribly out of date. The rules and fights you speak of are from long ago.

Quote:

Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts.




Dishonorable? I can see that. Corrupt? What are you talking about?

Quote:

Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.




The problem is your bias is stuck in the past, and the UFC has moved on. You simply do not know what you are talking about anymore. Why don't you watch a current UFC and see for yourself.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#293783 - 11/02/08 12:54 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: BrianS]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
Teruo Chinen. He is a bad mofo. I didn't get to study as long with him as I would have liked because cash was short in those days. It's interesting, even though he is ranked by "Black Belt" magazine as one of the top 10 martial arts instructors, he is very humble. He says he is not a martial artist because he has never actually been in a fight. I think anyone who has studied with him would disagree, he is very real. One of my favorite people.
You are right that there are good guys in there. I do respect Randy Couture.
I just believe the system, overall, is flawed.
That doesn't mean there are not a few good apples in it.
However, I feel that the very structure of the topic makes it generalistic in nature. And if we are generalizing, then the opinions stated are my general opinions of the UFC, as the largest representative of MMA.

My opinion on the dishonor inherent in UFC is compounded by recent events. It was the very last fight between Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock.
Tito dominated the match, that was impressive. But then he flipped Ken Shamrock off when Ken was trying to go over and shake his hand. Ken Shamrock just wanted to retire with dignity and put aside bad blood, and that was Tito Ortiz' reaction. After some booing, Tito finally went over and shook his hand, glaring the whole time.
That is a problem with the UFC. Fighting is Fighting, and Martial Arts are a discipline. If Tito Ortiz, and people like him do not have discipline, then they are not martial artists. There is no art to beating somebody to a pulp and then flipping them off. Leave the word art out of everything you do from now on if that is what you are resigned to be.
If we do not build our character, then when the body breaks down from age and overuse, then we have no value as human beings.
So no, I am not limiting my perception to only past events.

Also, I do not need to flog the faults in a grappling only style.
Every range should be prepared for in a combat situation.
I also believe that projectile range should be included in this equation. This means, not just learning gun disarms, but also learning to shoot a gun in a combat situation.
If you are wrestling with somebody, and clinched up, it is very easy to get shot or stabbed by their friend. That point has been made many times, I don't need to run it into the ground.


Quote:

berzerker,

Did you mean the top Goju instructors? Who were they?

I agree with you about mainstream mma. They shouldn't allow certain behaviors to continue,but there are good respectable guys in there like GSP, Couture, Anderson Silva, etc..

It's all about marketing and ratings(money), that's what has ruined it all.




Edited by berserkerofdeath (11/02/08 01:13 PM)

Top
#293784 - 11/02/08 01:16 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
That said, I am glad to see that more ranges are being used in the UFC nowadays. From a functionality perspective, it is improving.

Top
#293785 - 11/02/08 01:37 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Tito dominated the match, that was impressive. But then he flipped Ken Shamrock off when Ken was trying to go over and shake his hand. Ken Shamrock just wanted to retire with dignity and put aside bad blood, and that was Tito Ortiz' reaction. After some booing, Tito finally went over and shook his hand, glaring the whole time.





Although I agree that this was pretty dishonourable, I don't really see how this speaks for MMA or the UFC in general. One could say that 'Tito Ortiz has no honour etc," but to try and extend that to UFC and MMA as a whole is nonsense.

I've meet some pro and amateur MMA fighters. From my perspective, many of them were good guys and really good role models. I'm not saying there aren't jerks out there, but certainly no more than in any other martial art. The truth is, I've seen Aikidoka (!) with bigger egos than many MMA fighters. Why? Because they know what it's like to lose. Losing has a way of keeping your ego in check.

I'm all for Classical Jujutsu (I practice it). But to this line about Samurai being somehow intriscally noble/ honourable people (to paraphrase what you're saying) is incredibly flawed and comes off as you being ignorant of the history of old Japan.

These were the same people, after all, who 'tested' their new swords on 'lower class' captives necks. Although certain aspects of the code of Bushido are beautiful, much like the Western concept of Chivelry, the actual reality of life in that time was very diffirent. Of course, there were good Samurai of very high morals and ethics. There were also some who were cruel, power hungry and abusive (especially to the lower classes whom they were supposed to be protecting). Again, it's easy to romanticise the Samurai, but do your research. Like any other group there were good and bad. As a matter of fact, from my research it seems there were more bad than good.

So, maybe the MMA fighters are actually more like the Samurai that you thought, huh?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#293786 - 11/02/08 05:34 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Proeliator Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/14/07
Posts: 15
Loc: USA
Interesting thread...
_________________________
With Respect and Honor, James Bullock http://combative_sciences.tripod.com/

Top
#293787 - 11/02/08 06:10 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Proeliator]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
Nobody said the samurai were perfect. But the ideal of the samurai is an aspiration.
Using a religious example, Christians are said to aspire to be 'like Christ.' The Christ they mean is an ideal. I am not going to argue that Christ was or wasn't perfect, but the symbolic Christ is an example the religious use to attempt to better themselves.
So my use of the Samurai is of the samurai ideal, not necessarily the people.

Where the issue with the UFC comes in is that it has never aspired to be anything better than it is.
I think most of us know why Randy Couture wasn't fighting for the UFC due to his assiciation with Affliction. I do not think that the details of that situation say much for the character of the governing entities within the UFC.

Another issue is how many people idolize the worst tempered UFC fighter like Tito. They go around pushing people around trying to act 'dominant' like their heroes. This isn't really the fighters' fault and they are not responsible for their fans behavior, but they are responsible for their own, and it is still a very real problem nonetheless.

Top
#293788 - 11/02/08 07:05 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think it speaks more about our culture and society today that the UFC and other MMA events play up the violence in their marketing. The problem with that is, it resonates with the more violent of those in our society. Thus thats what turns up in your schools and gyms. As a gym owner, I've seen my share of unsavory characters coming in to improve their capacity for violence. It's not a good thing.

Top
#293789 - 11/02/08 07:22 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Excellent point Kogas.

I think that the already violent, somewhat sociopathic spectator/fan finds catharsis in the UFC, just as they do, say, a hockey fight. Same goes for the person who is sociopathically violent who comes to train MMA. I don't think it is the UFC's fault for turning these people violent. I think the marketing still has too much of the blood sport, gladatorial games aspect to it. I'd like it to be portrayed for its good qualities: a sport which takes extreme skill, physical prowess, and strategy to excel at.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#293790 - 11/09/08 08:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I can not disagree with this. It is very sad.
My mothers' ex-boyfriend was incredibly strong. I don't think he knew how strong. He was also an alcoholic (among other things) and he would workout with weights to get even stronger, then get drunk and do some stupid things, then say everyone else was being a hypocrite because he's a Christian so he can do what he wants and God will forgive him.
So I know firsthand that irrationally hostile people will create an outlet.
I just think it is sad for the martial arts that some of our most famous representatives act the way that some of them do.


Quote:

I think it speaks more about our culture and society today that the UFC and other MMA events play up the violence in their marketing. The problem with that is, it resonates with the more violent of those in our society. Thus thats what turns up in your schools and gyms. As a gym owner, I've seen my share of unsavory characters coming in to improve their capacity for violence. It's not a good thing.



Top
#293791 - 11/12/08 10:14 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
Inner_Ear Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 29
There is a lot here that has been considered on this thread as to what would be considered an adequate base for MMA training based on what it is used for so I won't go into too much detail as your scroll wheel is already at your index finger and you can easily look up (I hope). For one the rules of the situations you are getting into will change what path your following for example: "MT and run-of-the mill" MMA fighters (The standard forms of MT, BJJ, Boxing, Yawyan, etc. the "Pride" arts -not THAT kind of pride)" when fighting against a San Soo (Shou, Zhou can't recall spelling ATM) fighters have to undergo training to get used to the different rulings that are allowed in SS matches (eye gouge/ groin strikes/ dirty clinches) as the basis for the MA was for an extreme situation if you read into the history you will see what I mean. This is due to the changes in the situation, and if you want a more 'realistic' type of match, you have to change the rules, often; If you want to simulate fighting injured, prone, or whatever, you change the rules allowing your opponent to attack however, but you cannot do it with said body part, imo. Also the times you engage your attacker in realistic situations are not set, and anyone who's done 36-72-96 hour operational exercises can tell you it's a whole other set of rules that you don't get in a sport environment as its for the sport, not the application in your life. If you want to see what it's like you need an opponent you trust as it can be dangerous and ask them to attack you at random throughout the training session. If you really feel so inclined go camping and do the same thing, switching up the roles (and no you may not use the titles 'pitcher' and 'catcher' for this one :P).

Sadly yes the most often seen and associated image of MMA is the UFC/Pride fights that pit one 200+ # troll against another to watch the blood flow, which when actually researched as we've noted is not the be all and end all of MMA. MMA in of itself is supposed to be what is best suited for your attributes, be it reach, size, strength, speed, coordination etc. If there was one way of fighting, one way of learning, every club/dojo/training center would all be under the same name with the same punch-card coach doing the same techniques, but such is not the case upon a simple glance around the room.

RBDS scams are like gambling books, it's a quick way to earn money to support whatever the writer wants the money for. Reactions are like reflexes, and training ones body and ones mind to react a certain way takes a long time as you are building muscle memory, and a new neurological pathway, bringing a bit of truth to the saying I encountered in Kali training, "To master a technique you must do it properly five thousand times." It's no different for an athlete of any sort, or a musician of any sort either.

As I said earlier, ones MMA training is dependent on what works for them, and what constitutes a well rounded fighter. For me having both an unarmed and armed skills is essentialin being well rounded. Knowing how to handle weapons and people with them in todays world especially if you're in a job that requires you to go into situations like that, military for example. However for someone to say that a person can be faster than a trigger finger is pretty much the Hallmark of the RBSD Charlatan as stated here in this thread.

There are MMAs all over the world, but what goes into the mix is as finite as the person making it.


Edited by Inner_Ear (11/12/08 10:18 AM)
_________________________
Success cannot be attained except by piling effort upon effort.

Top
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >


Moderator:  Cord, JKogas, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga