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#293674 - 01/09/07 10:46 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Chen

"I just want people to think about what they are doing instead of always accpeting just what they are told."

Very good way to put it, and very good advice!
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#293675 - 01/09/07 02:35 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: cxt]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Wait so no weapons defenses of nay type, no multiple attacker training, etc? How incomplete. Yes 1 on 1 duking it out is not all there is. (please note I didn't read all posts).
It's not about winning it's about survival.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/09/07 02:36 PM)
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#293676 - 01/09/07 04:26 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Stormdragon]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
well most (not all) MMA schools out there teach you things that are mainly geared to 1 on 1 fights and give you more of a UFC/Pride take on what MMA is. Meaning alot of times the nitty gritty, dirty techniques are sometimes overlooked and not taught. Or like you said weapons and multiple opponents (which a nice randori can help solve).
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293677 - 01/09/07 08:45 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im not saying you shouldnt have a defensive strategy for weapons or multiple attackers that you practice often. You should, but dont be fooled into thinking your faster than a bullet. You arent. And no amount of muscle you may have is going to be strong enough to stop the bullet either. And if all you know is grappling, dont assume that you can use that uccessfully against several opponents. You can only grab so many people or limbs at a time.
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#293678 - 01/09/07 10:03 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
lol i dont think anything of the body can stop a bullet, thats a given. In terms of grappling against multiples, obviously it would be all stand up like randori (in aikido anyway). Constant moving and body positioning so that the other guys cant attack you and while you're doing that don't mind snapping a few joints here and there. I'm sure you guys have seen randori, I think its a great excercise even though I've never done it. While randori has been reduced to just pushing and pinning in Aikido, it can be taken to more extremes with striking and whatever else you wanna add in. But your average MMA school probably doesnt do this.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293679 - 01/10/07 05:25 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Im not saying you shouldnt have a defensive strategy for weapons or multiple attackers that you practice often. You should, but dont be fooled into thinking your faster than a bullet. You arent. And no amount of muscle you may have is going to be strong enough to stop the bullet either. And if all you know is grappling, dont assume that you can use that uccessfully against several opponents. You can only grab so many people or limbs at a time.




I know people who only wrestled at the collegiate level and have no other training but can take on 8 guys at the same time and win easily. That's 20 years of wrestling experience though, but the notion that you can't grapple multiple opponents is a myth.

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#293680 - 01/10/07 02:22 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.







I see your point but I don't see why you don't believe you shouldn't train for it. When ever you enter any conflict theres a chance you could die or be injuried. We train against the gun & knife because thats the world we live in. We train as you suggested with the Air Soft 400fps paint ball guns, true success rate is below 70% but its better then ZERO% or not being prepared at all. One of the things I hate is the idea that the bad guy is the only one that knows how to use a gun. Countering deadly force with deadly force brings the odds up past 90% in our practice.






After seminars and demo smart alect Teens and Adults will asked yeah thats great but what would you do if I pulled out my 9. My reply is blow you out your Reeboks with my 45!!! A.W at A.T. My body is used when I have no other weapon.



2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.





As for multiple the odds are not with you, but I have to ask what the hell do you think we Martial artist were doing before the Gracies said you can't fight Multiples. If I had believed that I'd be laying in a bathroom KO'd when mugged by two men, the near text book, bear hug arms pinned and one guy punching toward my face. There ain't no GREATER PROOF THAT THE MARTAIL ARTS WORKS THEN walking away from that. No trophies big enough, No pile of money high enough, no womans kiss sweet enough. Then to know all those hrs. of hard work, WORKED. You can tell me the odds, statistics, all that the Great Grapplers say it can't happen, you can tell me you don't believe me, it couldn't happen again. But you can't make me believe it didn't happen or that my art didn't work. Each person should train the way they believe and for the environment they live in. People that don't beleive in defending against multiples keep doing whats best for you. But at 4th kyu up through Black belt they train the same defense for a mugging with 1 or two guys punching. We train it so realistic, at a certain point, if you panic, some are knocked out while in the bear hug if they freeze (Attacker wearing gloves). They do it because I know it worked. Ain't trying change nobody or convince nobody, just saying what I teach and why.








3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.




I agree totally here Grappling should emphasis clinching and all the weapons and defenses within this range. It should also include a ground game, but emphasize getting back up as soon as possible. To escape.




4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.

I wouldn't say a Mcdojo just one lost in time, theres nothing wrong with JKD clubs that stress WC over Silat or Kali as long as they mix the ranges and explorer other avenues of training. Surely Bruce would have changed with the times and would have thought, Man tehy finally got it almost. Of course this is just my oppinion.


5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.




You need to keep the JKD code don't become stagnate alway question and grow. I agree here to. I do agree with Ed 50-60 years can't do MMA well.

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.




Edited by Neko456 (01/10/07 02:34 PM)
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#293681 - 01/10/07 06:56 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
"I know people that...can take on 8 guys at once and win easly..."

Here we go again.

Just once I wish the trolls would come up with something new and half way clever.

Just once!



Edited by cxt (01/10/07 06:57 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#293682 - 01/10/07 10:40 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
ambiguity Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
IMO the only inadequacies in any art,are there application and the big question of 'What am i really trying to acheive here?'be it a MMA gym or TKD dojo the real choice is an individual one.If youre goal is red neck stardom or contemplative monk,its entirly related to the gym enviroment that u train in.
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its all good all the time

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#293683 - 01/11/07 09:16 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men! ...without kata.

* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven. besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle? also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV. ...and without kata.




i definately agree that TV exposure and marketing has inspired a lot of wannabe hard men to look into becoming 'cage fighters', but as JK said, MMA schools, as with all MA schools, have the atmosphere that the instructors allow/encourage.

Case in point.
our senior instructor as an awesome Sombo wrestler/grappler, as well as Savateur, and exponent of Inosanto 'flavoured' JKD. Who better for the local MMA club to approach asking for additional assistance in technique training for competetive MMA matches?
An agreement was made, and an 'MMA' training slot created in the syllabus, where these guys, and regular club members could come and roll/strike and practice ringcraft etc.
Trouble was that the guys from the MMA club didnt understand the concept of learning and practice- as soon as a new transition or technique was shown, they would be straight into throwing down and trying it out full force on one another, or any class member unlucky enough to be partnered with them. My instructor told them to save the full on stuff for the competitions, not to risk injury, and to work on technique, but still they carried on being stupid and OTT. after a few weeks, the agreement was revoked and they were told to go beat each other up elsewhere. No concept of respect or control, no offer of the fat sombo moves. Simple as that.

We still have that class though, covering change of fighting range from stand up through clinch, to ground, just it consists of people with a better attitude.

On the other side of the coin, i have visited a local muay Thai school that is very focussed on competition. When you go in there, the atmosphere is entirely different to a 'martial arts' class. It is a fighters gym, full of fighters. They are not unfriendly, unruly, arrogant or mean, but they are focussed 100% on learning how to dominate and beat their oponent in every second of every round.
That difference in atmosphere could be seen as 'intimidating' to some, though i noted that there were several females there, all of whom appeared to compete, and felt very comfortable in there.

My argument would be, in regards not just to females but to SD application in general, how is a person going to use any technique they learn in the cheery environs of a nurturing MA class, if they cant handle training in a well controlled no nonsense fighting atmosphere?
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