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#293664 - 10/15/06 11:05 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ed Morris wrote
Quote:

wow...did you let me off easy! you feeling ok, bro?




No, I just agreed with you probably, lol


Quote:


thats great that I have the wrong image as it relates to YOUR training...and I believe you. but do you feel you are one of the few exceptions compared to joe-shmoes MMA gym?





Without question. I donít know if I am one of the *few* exceptions, but I do agree that there are many of ďJoe-Shmoes MMA GymsĒ out there. You certainly have to do your research before picking a place to train Ė if you want to stay healthy and injury free. I personally do believe that my gym is better ran (where the nice guys who arenít already super-human, freak athletes can benefit).

But there may be a reason for that. For one, I have never claimed to run an MMA gym, in a way. Itís subtle but, Iíve always ran a JKD Concepts place that used the methods of MMA as the primary training vehicle. Much in the same way that the Straight Blast Gym does. So we arenít ďjustĒ an MMA gym. We do things that many MMA gyms donít do, such as self-defense strategies and weapons training (stick and knife), etc. So perhaps that is where the differences lie.

Technically, the training isnít really that different from a standard MMA gym. Iíve been grappling for years as well as boxing, Thai boxing, savate, etc. But Iíve done Jun Fan, Kali-Silat as well (although most of that has been dropped). So my background is more of wide ranging variety than perhaps some boneheads out there whose background consisted of training in a ďpro-wrestlingĒ school.

Now in defense of MMA, the better schools are often ran well with attention given to the needs of the students and members. Many of them have fight team training as well as classes to the general public. Those will likely be taught a little differently.

All in all, every school is a reflection of the owner/instructor. If theyíre an @sshole, everyone else will probably be as well because all of the good guys will eventually leave and go elsewhere, leaving the a-holes to train together. And that happens as well. Iíve experienced it personally.



Quote:


I mean, there is exception to how we train kata compared to your semi-justified stereotyped view of strip-mall kata practice.

If you admit there are a fraction of places that train kata to useful effect, and I admit there are a fraction of MMA places that don't have the stereotypes...then we can safely say, that it's not the method themselves which are flawed - but more likely the individuals relaying those methods.





I would always agree that bad instruction is the main culprit behind bad training. And that does seem to be plentiful. Before I can simply state that kata can be trained to ďuseful effectĒ, Iíd have to see it done. I canít just sign off on that completely without doing so. I guess because I have NEVER seen it done. But I wonít shut the door to that possibility, simply because I respect your opinion. If you say it is, I am forced to give it some consideration.


Quote:


so the endless kata bashing is unnecessary and gets tiresome... just as it probably is for you to hear stereotypes in your art....since you aren't part of the stereotypes. I mean, I assume you've taken BJJ classes without even being gay for instance. lol j/k





I used to bash kata. I used to bash everything I didnít like. Thatís toned down to a degree now I believe. I mean, I still give my opinion about things ya know, but I try not to be insulting in the process. I mean, stereotyping things isnít a good thing, even though they are derived from truths.

Yes, I have always heard people stereotyping BJJ and MMA saying itís ďsportĒ this and ďtournamentĒ that. And just like you feel, I know in my heart that these folks donít have a clue and probably havenít been horizontal on a mat for a single minute of their lives. And it used to bother me a little. Now it doesnít phase me.



Chen Zen wrote
Quote:

Cant believe you threw in the gay joke As if bowing down to another man didnt make you look limp wristed enough! JK.





Yeah, I know Ed was joking and thatís cool too. I do enough to be a smart-ass myself around here but, I donít mind people ribbing me. I just donít want them ďchecking my oilĒ.


Quote:


if I may be so bold as to answer for John, I believe that his gym is an exception to the rule. MMA has become as bad as TKD or dare I say Karate as far as your mainstream mcdojo goes.





I hear ya Chen, though I donít know if MMA could ever truthfully go the way of the McDojo. The training makes you sweat and average McDojo students donít really like that. They donít like sore muscles. They donít like waking up in the morning, feeling like theyíve spent the night in a cement mixer.

Iíve taken my fair share of Advil.


Quote:


As for the kata thing, for me it remains to be seen. If I saw a place that had trained kata effectively then i would gladly say so. Perhaps you should post a video and show us what its all about Ed. Just pokin at ya. Im sure there are a FEW places on the far corners of the earth that can make it work!





Iíd say that there are exceptions for every rule. Iím willing to admit that, but like you, Iíd have to see it to believe it.



-John

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#293665 - 10/15/06 04:14 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
you guys might have not noticed that I havent exactly been around here alot mainly because I've spent some time on a Southern Praying Mantis forum. Its great to talk about my art with others that do the same but at the same time...theres such a deep dislike towards MMA, with an exception of a few guys.

Theres always that arguement that MMA guys are weak against people who use techniques that are not allowed in the ring, such as eye gouges and throat shots, etc. And I guess they fail to see the difference between MMA methodolgy & training and MMA competition. When MMA comes to their mind its redneck, hot heads and people who think grappling is superior. Thats the image of a fighter in their mind, that they're all a$$holes and jerks who live to fight.

I think that MMA gets such an image because everything they do revolves around fighting. I mean many MAs out there are about fighting but its more spiritual? or internal? I'm not really sure how to put it. Like in Southern Mantis its all about fighting but there are forms (aka katas) and breathing techniques, development of your iron shirt stuff, etc etc. Something that is common to many MAs out there. But in MMA its all about fighting and kind of resulting in why people think they are asses and everything. Again I'm speaking about your typical MMA guy.

I'm bashed on alot for my support of MMA and use of JKD in my TMA training, which I dont really understand. MMA and JKD mainly are giving you tools and ways for you to train in order to adapt to every situation.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293666 - 10/15/06 04:32 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote

Quote:

Its great to talk about my art with others that do the same but at the same time...theres such a deep dislike towards MMA, with an exception of a few guys.





You know something, thatís not a surprise whatsoever. The question is WHY they have a deep dislike. In my experience, such dislike is born of two things: ignorance and fear.


Quote:


Theres always that arguement that MMA guys are weak against people who use techniques that are not allowed in the ring, such as eye gouges and throat shots, etc. And I guess they fail to see the difference between MMA methodolgy & training and MMA competition.





BINGO! At least YOU realize that. The fact that others canít see this for some reason, really speaks of a general lack of intelligence and common sense. I mean, lets be honest here.



Quote:


When MMA comes to their mind its redneck, hot heads and people who think grappling is superior. Thats the image of a fighter in their mind, that they're all a$$holes and jerks who live to fight.






Thatís also lumping everyone thatís into MMA into a box. I wouldnít fit that description at all. How surprised they might be to find out that MMA is populated by intelligent men as well as idiots Ė just like any other segment of the martial arts community.


Quote:


I think that MMA gets such an image because everything they do revolves around fighting. I mean many MAs out there are about fighting but its more spiritual? or internal?





Lets not bullsh*t ourselves. Martial arts are first and foremost about fighting. Otherwise, youíd just go to church, correct?

The spiritual component comes through if thatís what an individual is seeking for. It comes through BY fighting, not by meditating and doing ritualistic movements. Dancing doesnít create enlightenment anymore than does meditating behind a waterfall. It comes through testing and pushing oneself beyond any perceived limitations!



Quote:


I'm not really sure how to put it. Like in Southern Mantis its all about fighting but there are forms (aka katas) and breathing techniques, development of your iron shirt stuff, etc etc. Something that is common to many MAs out there. But in MMA its all about fighting and kind of resulting in why people think they are asses and everything. Again I'm speaking about your typical MMA guy.

I'm bashed on alot for my support of MMA and use of JKD in my TMA training, which I dont really understand. MMA and JKD mainly are giving you tools and ways for you to train in order to adapt to every situation.





Again, ignorance is the main cause for people bashing MMA. Usually those who scoff at it the most are those whoíve never studied it. Do the math yourself there.



-John

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#293667 - 10/15/06 07:40 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I never understood why people assume that MMA is sport based. My MMA would never be allowed in competition. Thats not to say that I wouldnt love to compete, but I train self defense first. If you can fight effectively, then you should be able to water it down a little for competition without having to specifically train for sport, IMO.

As for peoples biased ideology, its to be expected. MA are alomost religion to some people and when you challenge someones beliefs they often are offended rather than enlightened.

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#293668 - 10/15/06 07:57 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
MMA is just a method of training. Rules can be altered to suit training objectives, period.



-John

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#293669 - 10/16/06 12:01 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

<snip>

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.




I see the title says MMA, and you say MMA a couple times in your post, but I don't see anything in the meat of your original post that is actually talking about MMA.

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#293670 - 10/16/06 12:53 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hear ya.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#293671 - 01/06/07 05:41 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
First, I'll say that I like the fact that you are such an intelligent person who tries to examine things from as objective a standpoint as possible. I like reading your posts, even though they can be controversial at times. People don't understand that martial arts were not always the way they are today, and that they will not always be this way in the future. I am a traditionalist, but I also understand the need to grow and evolve. I just do so within a traditional context, adding to tradition, I guess. I am a progressivist .

Quote:

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.




I have read about many gun disarms, but I always thought that it was a bad idea to try to do a gun disarm when the criminal only has to squeeze the trigger. Complicated disarming maneuver vs. simple squeezing reaction - um, yeah - I'd rather just hand over my wallet. I'd only use such a thing if I knew I was going to die anyways. So I agree with you on this one.

Quote:

2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.




This is one of the reasons why kata is attacked so viciously. Mcdojo's claim that kata teaches you to fight multiple attackers. That could be one of the possible ways to train it, but I personally never trained it as such and I don't think the kata were really meant for that, but that is just my opinion. It is hard enough trying to defeat one aggressor, why would you attempt to defeat an entire group? Now, there are some gifted fighters who can pull it off, I have seen them do it. However, it is more of the individual's personal prowess and not so much formal training - they did what they did and not all of what they did was from formal martial arts training. I guess that I agree with you again - training exclusively for multiple aggressors may not be the best course of action.

Quote:

3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.




Amen! The recent popularity of groundfighting has led many to believe that groundfighting is the only way to go and that striking and stand up grappling are near useless. It is nice to see that there are good martial artists who are trying to set the record straight. Groundfighting is fine one on one, but is counterproductive when confronted by multiples, IMHO. I guess that grappling is fine if you are using someone as a human sheild or if you are throwing them into the others to clear a path or slow them down. It is all in how you use it, but I agree with again on this point.

Quote:

4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.




Man, you are on fire. Most of Bruce Lee's superiority was mostly in the movies, not in real life. While he was an outstanding martial artist, he was not the greatest martial artist of all time, definitely the most popular one of all time, though. Bruce Lee did what worked best for Bruce Lee and his main message was for martial artists to do what works best for them. He created a style for him and he wanted each individual to create a style for themselves. If a school is trying to teach you how to fight like Bruce Lee then that school is going against what Bruce Lee was trying to teach in the first place.

Quote:

5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.




I always thought that RBMA was a gimmick and a cheap way to make money. It seems like all of the instructors are trying to cash in on terrorism and bar brawls. Some of them seem like downright flakes if you ask me. Just another one of those 'I can give you everything you need in no time at all' type of deals. I respect them because they are trying to be innovative and train an area that often goes overlooked, but people could just as easily consult a local LEO or military vet for such training and insights. They can add what they learned to what they already practice, thus eliminating the need for the RBMA fad. Just add a modern component to what you already train in. Adjust your techniques to meet modern day situations, thus fostering the evolution of all martial arts. We already have the tools, just add some new blue prints.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#293672 - 01/08/07 04:47 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
tkd_dude Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Great thread, I'd have to say though, if you want to do a gun disarm with a paintball pistol, you need a mask. I can tell you that they don't hurt too terribly bad, but a paintball in the eye is as good as or better than any eye gouge I've ever seen. Wear a mask, don't get hurt.

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#293673 - 01/09/07 12:43 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: tkd_dude]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Thanks guys. As far as contreversy, it comes with the territory. I just want people to think about what they are doing instead of always accepting just what they are told.

Oh and the mask is a very good idea.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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