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#293774 - 10/27/08 06:52 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I never once said chi sao doesn't work. I said the Jun Fan method of chi sao is better than the Wing Chun method of chi sao.
I can't explain the physics of why this works better than Jesse did. I will try though.
With the Jun Fan method, forward pressure is constant. It's like building up the gas pressure in a gun. The second the opponent lets up on that pressure, you are inside like a bullet. This is simplified a great deal. There is also tying them up and many other variations. And of course, the pressure is a principle, and not a specific technique. To me, that makes it superior to a simple memorized movement.
I hope that's clear.
The following IS my opinion.
I believe that Bruce Lee from the late 60's would do very well against a modern fighter. To say the least. Having experienced many different martial arts at the hands of very masterful practitioners, I have not found the early Jun Fan methods and ideas to be in the least bit outdated.


Quote:

As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.

But if your talking about the drill in WC then thats a different story. I'm talking about the actual sticking of hands. I practice chi sao all the time in Mantis but its not practiced the same as in WC, which to me only isolates it to 1 single excercise. Most of the drills I've done involve chi sao just because of the whole sensitivity & control thing I mentioned.


whats this have to do with MMA being inadequate?



Top
#293775 - 10/27/08 06:59 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
berserk...I was actually commenting on John's post saying that chi sao wouldnt even work in highschool wrestling, when the case is that I find chi sao to be VERY helpful when dealing with grappling situations because it forces you to make contact unlike striking. It was the first things I noticed when I took a BJJ class because when you're in guard you have to get past or disable your opponents hands so that you can work your game, I didnt really have to look or think too hard because I sensed it all already. Of course I'm saying this based on my own experience & no one elses.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293776 - 10/27/08 07:28 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote:

Quote:

dam John, you going to let him survive this thread?





That will be completely up to him. Bring a credible argument that contains something other than bias and he might get somewhere. Otherwise I believe most folks can read between the lines and see such arguments for what they are. So yeah, it's up to him whether he survives here. Odds aren't great though, lol.


Quote:


As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.





I understand what you're saying. I just think there are better ways of training. Pummeling for instance. Ever notice the lack of chi-sao in most wrestling practice? Probably a good reason for that. I doubt you'll be seeing Greco-Roman wrestlers adding chi-sao to their routines anytime soon. Of course I could be wrong. The reason is because of the elbows being away from the body. That's just bad form. But hey, that's just my opinion.



berserkerofdeath wrote
Quote:

I am fine with intelligent debate, but I will NOT participate in "My dad is bigger than your dad" chest puffery when it is an obvious case of it's better to agree to disagree, which is where that seemed to be going.





Don't know about chest puffing. I'm fine with sticking with facts. Just make sure you do so yourself.


Quote:


My points were pretty clear. I've been against the UFC from the start. The Gracies wrote in an extra soft ground covering. It's like kicking in soft sand. Obviously giving ground fighters an advantage.





Check this video out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDWVDQfybgw

Note the tile flooring. The point? Don't think for a minute that they choose a safe flooring because they were AFRAID of being hurt. In most cases, who is going to be one to suffer most because of the surface, a grappler or a person who isn't a grappler? I'd bet that all of the people the Gracie's have taken down and beaten up, were pretty grateful for any form of soft surface they might have fallen upon.

And if I'm correct, that isn't the same surface that's still in use. However from last check, there's still plenty of ground fighting going on. So whats your point about this?


Quote:


And if you remember Ken Shamrock's first fight, they wrote a new rule DURING THE FIGHT, that said Shamrock couldn't kick because he was wearing soft shoes.
That pretty much sealed my opinion of the UFC.





What UFC was that by the way? Like UFC 3 or something held way back in the 90's? You do realize it's 2008 right?


Quote:


Biased? Probably.





I'd say there's no question about it!


Quote:


But I have studied BJJ privately with a brown belt instructor who was very good. I like BJJ for some purposes.





Like everyone else in this modern age. A person interested in functional fighting ability would leave a tremendous hole in his game to NOT study BJJ in this day and time.



Quote:

I never beat around any bushes. I am very blunt.





That's all we ask.



Quote:


I have trained with some of the best martial artists in the world, including oe of the top two guju intructors. When I first experienced Jun Fan as taught by Jesse Glover, it made everything else look like kindergarten.





Wonderful for you.


Quote:


That's all there is to it. You can have a different opinion, but how you word that opinion is what makes a difference.
As they say "You gots to give respect to gets respect."





Fine, just remember your own words.

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#293777 - 10/27/08 07:44 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

I understand what you're saying. I just think there are better ways of training. Pummeling for instance. Ever notice the lack of chi-sao in most wrestling practice? Probably a good reason for that. I doubt you'll be seeing Greco-Roman wrestlers adding chi-sao to their routines anytime soon. Of course I could be wrong. The reason is because of the elbows being away from the body. That's just bad form. But hey, that's just my opinion.




I feel like we've had this conversation before, haha

I'm not speaking of chi sao as a drill like it is in WC (many different ways to practice sticking, I also like sticking but I dont think I would like practicing it like it is in WC). I'm speaking of it as an acquired skill, something that many grapplers would appreciate if you can explain it right. Learning to stick (most chinese training methods at least) don't involve much energy while wrestlers do require massive amounts of strength. Theres an emphasis on the "ju" or gentle. You stick to gain position & to control, all done with little effort.

However, techniques like pummeling also have their place when the situation presents itself.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293778 - 10/27/08 11:47 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
"Odds aren't great though, lol."

See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. If you want an intelligent debate then act like it. Sarcasm and the like are hardly intellectual in nature. It's bateing, and it should be beneath a martial artist.

Yes they have switched the ground covering. They've also added weight classes and many other things. That's why strikers do better now than they used to. My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.
Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts. Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.

What exactly are YOU trying to say?

So far, all you have done is question my statements, without any sort of actual documentation or reason at all.
I make a statement, you say you don't like my statement.
That's been our entire interaction. Intellectual debate implies a discourse. It means you posit a theory, and then support that theory. If you are simply saying I am wrong, then what is the better theory that you are countering it with?


Edited by berserkerofdeath (10/27/08 11:55 PM)

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#293779 - 10/28/08 12:52 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
This is not debate, it is argument. It is unproductive, and a waste of time.
My point has been clearly stated. It is there for posterity.

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#293780 - 10/28/08 05:15 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
berzerker,

Did you mean the top Goju instructors? Who were they?

I agree with you about mainstream mma. They shouldn't allow certain behaviors to continue,but there are good respectable guys in there like GSP, Couture, Anderson Silva, etc..

It's all about marketing and ratings(money), that's what has ruined it all.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#293781 - 10/29/08 06:38 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. If you want an intelligent debate then act like it. Sarcasm and the like are hardly intellectual in nature. It's bateing, and it should be beneath a martial artist.





berserkerofdeath, I don't think that IExcalibui2 was really arguing with you (I could be wrong) and may be getting he and I confused. Slow down and take your time.


Quote:


Yes they have switched the ground covering. They've also added weight classes and many other things. That's why strikers do better now than they used to. My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.
Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts. Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.





Hold the phone bro. I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding many of these issues. So before you lambaste me, give it time here to fully comprehend all of our viewpoints.

Yes, the UFC is a "sport", but that makes it too easy to write-off don't you think? Now I'm not sure if that's what your intention is or not, so perhaps you could clarify.



Quote:


What exactly are YOU trying to say?




Who are you addressing here? IExcalibui2 or me? I'm just making sure that we don't get confused. However, what I or anyone else here is trying to say, may be something that is better obtained through taking time and looking at the big picture here, from a continuous discussion. That's something not easily answered in a paragraph.


Quote:


If you are simply saying I am wrong, then what is the better theory that you are countering it with?





First of all, I'm not simply saying that you're wrong. I can't say either way until I know what it is you're trying to say. That's been my only purpose in conversing with you so far. I'm still trying to figure out what you're saying.

So far is seems on the surface to be another "sport" is bad, "street" is good argument. People have downplayed the UFC for years, for reasons that were often asinine. So far your arguments have been about the padding and the like, which we've heard before from people simply trying to put grapplers down or, place them into a box. Which quite simply, is stupid. Usually these arguments come from people who can't grapple. Not saying this is you, just making the point.

So before I make statements about what my beliefs are (which again, may not entirely be dissimilar to your own), I'm still trying to see where you stand on things.

It just strikes me as odd that someone would come onto a forum in 2008 and start talking about Royce Gracie, who hasn't been a factor in years, or an era of the UFC that's been long since vanished. Immediately, you were making negative implications about the Gracies and the UFC. What the hell are we supposed to think here?


By the way, I ALSO agree with you about mainstream MMA. Give yourself a chance here to get the full picture.

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#293782 - 10/29/08 01:49 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
BoD -

Quote:

My point is that the UFC has a history of corruption and bias. I have supported that with documented facts. You can check them.




Your facts are terribly out of date. The rules and fights you speak of are from long ago.

Quote:

Anyone can verify them. And the corruption and dishonor in the UFC continues with things like Tito Ortiz flipping off Ken Shamrock. The title is "shortcomings of MMA" and I think that the dishonorable and negative conduct of the fighters is a major shortcoming. It ruins the public perception of martial arts.




Dishonorable? I can see that. Corrupt? What are you talking about?

Quote:

Jiu Jutsu came from the Samurai. It was grounded in honor and discipline. Where has that gone in the UFC? These people throw temper tantrums, have a history of making up rules on the spot... The system is flawed. I have admitted bias, but I can at least provide a historical grounding for why I have that bias.




The problem is your bias is stuck in the past, and the UFC has moved on. You simply do not know what you are talking about anymore. Why don't you watch a current UFC and see for yourself.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293783 - 11/02/08 12:54 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: BrianS]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
Teruo Chinen. He is a bad mofo. I didn't get to study as long with him as I would have liked because cash was short in those days. It's interesting, even though he is ranked by "Black Belt" magazine as one of the top 10 martial arts instructors, he is very humble. He says he is not a martial artist because he has never actually been in a fight. I think anyone who has studied with him would disagree, he is very real. One of my favorite people.
You are right that there are good guys in there. I do respect Randy Couture.
I just believe the system, overall, is flawed.
That doesn't mean there are not a few good apples in it.
However, I feel that the very structure of the topic makes it generalistic in nature. And if we are generalizing, then the opinions stated are my general opinions of the UFC, as the largest representative of MMA.

My opinion on the dishonor inherent in UFC is compounded by recent events. It was the very last fight between Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock.
Tito dominated the match, that was impressive. But then he flipped Ken Shamrock off when Ken was trying to go over and shake his hand. Ken Shamrock just wanted to retire with dignity and put aside bad blood, and that was Tito Ortiz' reaction. After some booing, Tito finally went over and shook his hand, glaring the whole time.
That is a problem with the UFC. Fighting is Fighting, and Martial Arts are a discipline. If Tito Ortiz, and people like him do not have discipline, then they are not martial artists. There is no art to beating somebody to a pulp and then flipping them off. Leave the word art out of everything you do from now on if that is what you are resigned to be.
If we do not build our character, then when the body breaks down from age and overuse, then we have no value as human beings.
So no, I am not limiting my perception to only past events.

Also, I do not need to flog the faults in a grappling only style.
Every range should be prepared for in a combat situation.
I also believe that projectile range should be included in this equation. This means, not just learning gun disarms, but also learning to shoot a gun in a combat situation.
If you are wrestling with somebody, and clinched up, it is very easy to get shot or stabbed by their friend. That point has been made many times, I don't need to run it into the ground.


Quote:

berzerker,

Did you mean the top Goju instructors? Who were they?

I agree with you about mainstream mma. They shouldn't allow certain behaviors to continue,but there are good respectable guys in there like GSP, Couture, Anderson Silva, etc..

It's all about marketing and ratings(money), that's what has ruined it all.




Edited by berserkerofdeath (11/02/08 01:13 PM)

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