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#293764 - 10/21/08 12:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: v_sho_v]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
v_sho-v,

I have said lots about aikido on this board already and don't want to open that can of worms again. Suffice it to say that, in my opinion, aikido is to martial arts what homoepathy is to modern medicine.

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#293765 - 10/21/08 09:33 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I think the biggest issue I have with the MMA stuff is that it was popularized by the UFC. The UFC is a tournament that the Gracies still owned and wrote the rules for when they were winning it.





The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up? And by the way, they are STILL "winning" it, so to speak.



Quote:


The whole thing is a flawed experiment in that it is designed to favor a specific style.




Which style is that?


Quote:


Jeet Kune Do had many flaws, but the early Jun Fan was better. What Jesse Glover teaches is ridiulously effective. The true push hands drills taught in this system are better than those in Wing Chun. The grappling is excellent. The punches are the best there is.





Doesn't matter what Jesse or anyone else teaches. What matters is what YOU can DO. THAT is what makes a system what it is. Original or extra crispy JKD makes no difference to me. You can stand in a strong side forward lead all day in HONG KONG and it won't matter if you...can't...fight.


Quote:


Bruce Lee gets talked down a lot because few martial artists have experienced his original style. They only know about him what they see in movies, which is far from the reality.





He gets talked down about because he was a movie star and not a fighter. He WAS however a great thinker, but then again, he really didn't come up with anything new. He took what was already good and added them together...kinda like MMA. In other words, boxing with wing chun, etc.


Quote:


So many people think JKD was an evolution, but I do not think the JKD system was as good as Jun Fan.




So which JKD or Jun Fan are you referring to? The Seattle era, the Oakland era, or the LA era? Each was different because Lee was evolving......

..oh wait, you just implied that JKD was NOT evolving, even though it clearly was.

What were you trying to say again?



-John

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#293766 - 10/23/08 06:50 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I'm sorry that is not correct. When Bruce added the concept of the constant forward pressure to the chi sao drills, that was an innovation. And in my opinion, one of his best innovations.

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#293767 - 10/23/08 10:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
What wasn't correct?

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#293768 - 10/26/08 12:48 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
"but then again, he really didn't come up with anything new. He took what was already good and added them together..."
This is an incomplete or incorrect statement. He improved the original techniques. Adding forward pressure to chi sao improved it. It took it beyond merely piecing things together. That approach is why JKD is no longer what it was intended to be. The superior method is to figure out WHY something works, and if it can be made better. The next step after that is figuring out if you can apply the PRINCIPAL to other techniques.
Using grappling as an example: If something works on the thumb, the same leverage works on the wrist, the elbow, etc.
Also, the Gracies co-founded the UFC and wrote the original rules, with their student, Art Davie.

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#293769 - 10/26/08 02:14 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

He improved the original techniques. Adding forward pressure to chi sao improved it. It took it beyond merely piecing things together. That approach is why JKD is no longer what it was intended to be.





Thatís YOUR opinion. Make sure you include that. I disagree completely. I think you miss the entire point of why Lee felt JKD needed to be created to begin with (to free people from form and ďwayĒ).


Quote:


The superior method is to figure out WHY something works, and if it can be made better. The next step after that is figuring out if you can apply the PRINCIPAL to other techniques.
Using grappling as an example: If something works on the thumb, the same leverage works on the wrist, the elbow, etc.




I donít disagree with that, but this wasnít any point I was arguing with. Itís a separate issue.


Quote:


Also, the Gracies co-founded the UFC and wrote the original rules, with their student, Art Davie.





And your point is?

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#293770 - 10/26/08 04:36 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
The point is you said:
"The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up?"
Which was entirely incorrect. Rorion Gracie wrote the rules of the UFC. It was biased from the start. That is the greatest inadequacie of the UFC.
My comment on Bruce Lee's improvement of chi sao is more than an opinion, it is based in physics. If you think I am stuck on techniques over principles then you missed the point of everything I said.
Look, I'm not going to argue just for the sake of arguing.
That's for people who need to 'win' to feel superior.
If that's what you're into then fine, you win. I hope that gives your life some value.

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#293771 - 10/26/08 08:29 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: berserkerofdeath]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

The point is you said:
"The Gracies have nothing to do with the UFC. Why bring THEM up?"
Which was entirely incorrect.





I don't think you're reading it correctly. Check again. I said; "The Gracies HAVE nothing to do with the UFC...." Meaning, that they are not involved in the event any longer. They haven't been involved in the event for YEARS because Rorion sold his part of it a long time ago. The Fertittas own it now. They've owned it for a long time and, as I said, the Gracies have nthing to do with the UFC, why bring them up?


Quote:


Rorion Gracie wrote the rules of the UFC. It was biased from the start. That is the greatest inadequacie of the UFC.





Biased in favor of whom? You've not made that clear. All YOU are doing is throwing innuendos up without explaining what you mean. Stop beating around the bush and lay it all out man.


Quote:


My comment on Bruce Lee's improvement of chi sao is more than an opinion, it is based in physics. If you think I am stuck on techniques over principles then you missed the point of everything I said.





First of all, who cares a whit about chi sao? Chi sao doesn't even work againt high school wrestling. Whats the point that you're trying to make?


Quote:


Look, I'm not going to argue just for the sake of arguing. That's for people who need to 'win' to feel superior.
If that's what you're into then fine, you win. I hope that gives your life some value.






Dude, an internet forum exists FOR intelligent debate. I'm not afraid to because I know my arguments will hold water. If you're not as certain, feel free to decline. Don't like heat, stay away from the kitchen.

Look, if you weren't making innuendos about "sport" training and fighting (which is comical) we might find that we actually agree on some things. But the only bias about the UFC is your own. Until you're willing to come clean about that, we probably won't get very far because you'd be unwilling to deal with certain truths.

So come on back, stop bs'ing and beating around the bush, and get to your points. It's all cool.

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#293772 - 10/27/08 03:19 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
dam John, you going to let him survive this thread?

As for the chi sao doesnt work thing..well I'd have to say the principles of chi sao (which is training sensitivity) works A LOT in terms of grappling. Its actually harder for me to stick to someone in stand up but when your grappling you're forced to touch one another which enables you to sense peoples movements & intentions. Whether its clinching or rolling on the ground, sensitivity is there. And thats what chi sao is about.

But if your talking about the drill in WC then thats a different story. I'm talking about the actual sticking of hands. I practice chi sao all the time in Mantis but its not practiced the same as in WC, which to me only isolates it to 1 single excercise. Most of the drills I've done involve chi sao just because of the whole sensitivity & control thing I mentioned.


whats this have to do with MMA being inadequate?
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#293773 - 10/27/08 06:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: IExcalibui2]
berserkerofdeath Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Spokane, WA
I am fine with intelligent debate, but I will NOT participate in "My dad is bigger than your dad" chest puffery when it is an obvious case of it's better to agree to disagree, which is where that seemed to be going.
If that's not the case then I will continue.
My points were pretty clear. I've been against the UFC from the start. The Gracies wrote in an extra soft ground covering. It's like kicking in soft sand. Obviously giving ground fighters an advantage.
And if you remember Ken Shamrock's first fight, they wrote a new rule DURING THE FIGHT, that said Shamrock couldn't kick because he was wearing soft shoes.
That pretty much sealed my opinion of the UFC. Biased? Probably. But I have studied BJJ privately with a brown belt instructor who was very good. I like BJJ for some purposes.
I never beat around any bushes. I am very blunt.
I have trained with some of the best martial artists in the world, including oe of the top two guju intructors. When I first experienced Jun Fan as taught by Jesse Glover, it made everything else look like kindergarten. That's all there is to it. You can have a different opinion, but how you word that opinion is what makes a difference.
As they say "You gots to give respect to gets respect."


Edited by berserkerofdeath (10/27/08 06:54 PM)

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