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#293654 - 10/14/06 10:43 PM The inadequacies of MMA training.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disams, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just dont wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.

2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldnt even have to say whats wrong with this but here goes anyways. No ammount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually dont happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesnt make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in tis situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.

3rd beef, Grappling. Dont get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position. I also believe that while groundfighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.

4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All Im gonna say at the present about that.

5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a committment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.

Well theres a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#293655 - 10/14/06 11:10 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Oh YES! This is going to be great. I'm going to take some time and prepare my counterpoints.


Thanks Chen!


-John

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#293656 - 10/14/06 11:11 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its what I do John, Its what I do. Looks to be fun.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293657 - 10/14/06 11:42 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote
Quote:

Well, here it is. I had my way with Karate, so now I focus on something a little closer to home. The MMA scene.

1st beef, Weapons disarms. A school that teaches weapons disarms, in particular gun disarms, is a school that has the wrong idea. Often these tactics are way too complex. Complexity is the last thing you want in functional self defense. Also many of these schools emphasize direct contact with the weapon or weapon hand. It isnt a good idea and it isnt necessary. Test it. Get a paintball pistol. Non lethal and not as fast a real gun but quiet telling. Practice your favorite gun disarms to see if they work. Try it realistically so that your opponent doesnt know the exact moment you intend to disarm him. Just don’t wear your favorite shirt as you may be surprised. And a little sore. Now do the same thing but this time put your gloves on. Have your "enemy" put on headgear. Run the same scenario but this time rather than trying to disarm him simply try to knock him down before he shoots you. You'll have less cleaning to do I bet. As for knives you could do the same thing with a magic marker. If you got a line or dot you got "hit" and your training failed you in that instance.





First, I don’t personally like the idea of weapons disarms, particularly guns. Training empty hand vs. the blade is ok in my book (though not much better) providing that everyone knows that they’re going to be cut if fighting a person with a knife. Still, it isn’t something I personally enjoy considering that my main line of defense in a knife situation is going to be the same as my gun situation – hand over my wallet and keys or, run like hell, depending on circumstances.

That said, I do “little” in the way of weapons stuff. Personally I don’t know many MMA schools that deal with this subject at all.

I agree with your post however. I feel like you’re pretty much right-on with your points.


Quote:


2nd beef, multiple aggressors. I shouldn’t even have to say what’s wrong with this but here goes anyways. No amount of training can prepare you for a multiple attacker situation. The reality is that multiple attacker situations usually don’t happen face to face. Multiple attack situations are almost always involved with criminals and criminal intent. That doesn’t make them any stronger or more skilled, but none of that really matters when you catch a blow from behind to the back of your head, or getting your head stomped in by the buddy of the guy you may or may not be beating up. The truth is that you should make escape your first priority in this situation, anyone who says otherwise is ill informed.





Again I agree here. Though there are exceptions to every rule, I don’t believe that any amount of training will even the odds in multiple attacker situations. Thus I don’t do much of that myself. Again, I don’t know many MMA schools that do. Like the weapons stuff, it’s not very realistic if the objective is to overcome multiples. The idea (like you mentioned) should be creating angles to escape and nothing more. Definitely not trying to “beat up” a group of guys.


Quote:


3rd beef, Grappling. Don’t get me wrong, any complete fighter must be competent in the grappling range. However, most schools refer to grappling as simply being on the ground. This is not the case, as there is grappling within the clinch and also trapping from a standing position.





Agreed. Grappling isn’t only ground-fighting. We spend much time training in the clinch as well as the ground. We spend a fair amount of time training to strike as well. We attempt to develop the entire package.



Quote:


I also believe that while ground fighting is important it isnt the be all end all of self defense. A lot of grapplers will tell you grappling is superior and unstoppable by strikers. BS. Since mobility is the most important factor in escape, grappling cannot always be the best choice. Also, if you were to find yourself in that multiple attacker situation then grappling with one guy isnt going to help fight off the others.





Agreed here again. (Not much to disagree with thus far).

Escape is ALWAYS top priority in any self-defense situation. That’s going to mean staying on your feet. Going to the ground has its drawbacks in certain situations (which would include third, forth and fifth parties – or more).

Escape isn’t always possible if you have to stay and defend your family, etc. Those circumstances require us to do things that fit the needs of the moment. That may include ground-fighting because of the tremendous ally the ground becomes when you have placed an opponent between you and it – providing that doing so is the appropriate response (which is of course, determined by each unique circumstance).


Quote:


4th beef, Bruce Lee. If forty years after his death your school is still trying to emulate everything Bruce did, then you my friend, are in a McDojo. Get out while all is not lost. All I’m gonna say at the present about that.





I’ve grown UP a JKD guy. My brother in law was a student of Larry Hartsell. I’ve had JKD in my blood for years. Truthfully I’ve outgrown much of it and gone way beyond the early stuff I was taught. I don’t really see what I do as JKD “technically” in the way many do. Yet every principle is very much intact.


Quote:


5th beef, One week RBSD courses. Places that make statements such as "become a competent fighter in said amount of time" is garbage and unrealistic. The simple truth is that you must have a commitment greater than a few days to become competent. Often, a few years isnt enough. So start now!.

Well there’s a short examination of the whole MMA Scene. Lets hear it.






I’m guessing you have a broad-ranged definition of “MMA”. I don’t consider RBSD to be MMA, although they may in fact use the MMA “vehicle” for training purposes. Because that’s all MMA is – another “tool” in the toolbox of fight training.

MMA means, “mixed martial arts”. In truth, I don’t know if there CAN be a mixed martial art because at the end of the day, fighting is just fighting. To take grappling away from punching and kicking (and vice versa) is a relatively NEW thing. We’re (MMA guys) probably only returning to the once natural state of fighting and the training to fight. I wouldn’t say that what we’re doing is anything new at all. Probably more of a rediscovery of the “way it used to be, back in the day”.

Without the kata, of course.



-John

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#293658 - 10/14/06 11:53 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Chen Zen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my beefs about MMA training may sound like stereotypes, and if they ARE uninformed stereotypes...it's because I'm basing my view on limited exposure - and I appologize up front for possible ignorance. for clarity, I consider cross-training and MMA to be separate things.

* age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men! ...without kata.

* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven. besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle? also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV. ...and without kata.

* instructors tend to be selfish - a local guy suppossedly teaching a MMA class every saturday, but is actually only there teaching once a month. the other days are run by his senior students...why? because he still competes and goes away to his weekend tournaments. If you are going to compete actively, be on the road and never be there, why even have a school and claim to teach? prestige? to say you have a gym and can give out the website address? ...and without kata?

* too expensive. man, do MMA classes milk people. to someone coming out of H.S. I'd say save your money for college. The geek you were able to tap out in 3 seconds will be making 6 figures while you train to be an awsome fighter...meanwhile you're buffing floors and asking 'paper or plastic?'.

lol... please correct my view....without kata.

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#293659 - 10/14/06 11:54 PM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I do have a broad definition of MMA.Reason being that so many people use this "machine" to promote their given style. Everyone has to get a paycheck, right? It almost to the point that you rarely see a purely one styled dojo but I suppose thats a good thing.

I think you are right also, as far as getting back to the basics of combat. Whats the quote? A punch is just a punch and so on... its a little too obvious to some people. Like when they search the whole house for the keys in their pocket. Some people are trying so hard to find the answers that they skip right over them. While others are so deluded by mysticism and the movies that they could never accept an answer other than what they have been instructed answer with. Glad to see the "regression" into something more solid.
And without Kata.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#293660 - 10/15/06 12:03 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Dont know how you got up there without me seeing before I posted.

I already know John is working up an answer for the age thing as he doesnt fit in that group, I dont believe. I do so I cant say much there other than that we dont discriminate. Women are quiet welcome, but most women see it as brutal practice and want no part of it. Maybe its brutal because of the Machoism you mentioned but really Ive seen that attitude everywhere from MMA to ITF TKD.

Selfish instructors, theres a first. lol. I saw my TKD "Instructor" about once a month as you suggested. He was a former world champion in the senior division. Not to mention the testing prices, belt prices and monthly fees as well. Everyone wants to be rich right?

As for too expensive, check selfish instructors.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293661 - 10/15/06 12:08 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ed Morris wrote
Quote:

… for clarity, I consider cross-training and MMA to be separate things.





I do as well, with cross training being inferior, IMO.


Quote:


* age/gender group: MMA seems to caters to 20&30-sumthin males. when they hit an age where 'full resistance' training doesn't do their body good, what do they do? if MMA is the best for self-defense, why don't they allow for the atmosphere for women to train alongside the men? arguably, the women have more reason for defense training....and particularly defense against men!





I see no reason why women cannot train alongside the men! Particularly if they are training with a good school. That’s the key; you have to train with intelligent people who understand coaching. You have to find a school that emphasizes progressive resistance and variable intensity. If you can find a place like that – sign up for life! That’s exactly the joint I try and run. I take in beginners and mix them in with the vets all the time and all goes well. Not every school is ran that way however.



Quote:


* macho perception of 'realistic training': macho-ism leads to injury, unsafe training and tends to attract the testosterone-driven.




That is the single biggest thing I despise about MMA. One problem is, it’s now marketed in line with Pro Wrestling. In fact, MMA and “raslin’” are back-to-back on Spike TV – which is terrible because now I have to deal with the wrestling fans who come in wanting to learn how to “twist people up”.

I had one guy who came in looking to train that had actually signed up with a pro wrestling school once. Naturally he wasn’t a good “fit” with the rest of the group who are humble, down to earth folks. We’re nice guys, not Neanderthals. They don’t tend to stay around long because I personally AM attempting to create an environment free of testosterone driven ego battles.


Quote:


besides, why do you need to get hit in the face with an elbow every time to learn a principle?




Well, you don’t. Good schools aren’t about that either. I mean, certainly you have to go harder as you progress in order to challenge and push yourself. But then you can back off after you’ve done that. There is no need for brutality at all though. Most MMA gyms can’t take elbows to the face or risk getting cut in training. Anything like that will only jeopardize their careers.

As for my gym (we don’t have ONE person with the intention of competing – yet), it’s about safety. No need for stupid injuries and there is no need to leave the gym with fewer brain cells than you came in with.


Quote:


also, the way MMA is portrayed on televised matches draws punks into learning MMA so they can more effectively backyard brawl during an argument at a keg party over their girl. too much ego floating around in MMA gyms and hype on TV.





That’s another reason I am careful about whom I sign on. That is NOT how I run my gym and I won’t tolerate that kind of bullsh*t for a moment. I’ll kick people out of my gym in a New York minute.


Quote:


* instructors tend to be selfish - a local guy suppossedly teaching a MMA class every saturday, but is actually only there teaching once a month. the other days are run by his senior students...why? because he still competes and goes away to his weekend tournaments. If you are going to compete actively, be on the road and never be there, why even have a school and claim to teach? prestige? to say you have a gym and can give out the website address?





Can’t speak for everyone. A-holes are in all walks of life.


Quote:


* too expensive. man, do MMA classes milk people. to someone coming out of H.S. I'd say save your money for college. The geek you were able to tap out in 3 seconds will be making 6 figures while you train to be an awsome fighter...meanwhile you're buffing floors and asking 'paper or plastic?'.

lol... please correct my view.





Agreed with completely!



-John

Top
#293662 - 10/15/06 12:33 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
wow...did you let me off easy! you feeling ok, bro?

thats great that I have the wrong image as it relates to YOUR training...and I believe you. but do you feel you are one of the few exceptions compared to joe-shmoes MMA gym?

I mean, there is exception to how we train kata comparred to your semi-justified stereotyped view of strip-mall kata practice.

If you admit there are a fraction of places that train kata to useful effect, and I admit there are a fraction of MMA places that don't have the stereotypes...then we can safely say, that it's not the method themselves which are flawed - but more likely the individuals relaying those methods.

so the endless kata bashing is unecessary and gets tiresome... just as it probably is for you to hear stereotypes in your art....since you aren't part of the stereotypes. I mean, I assume you've taken BJJ classes without even being gay for instance. lol j/k

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#293663 - 10/15/06 12:46 AM Re: The inadequacies of MMA training. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Cant believe you threw in the gay joke As if bowing down to another man didnt make you look limp wristed enough! JK.

if I may be so bold as to answer for John, I believe that his gym is an exception to the rule. MMA has become as bad as TKD or dare I say Karate as far as your mainstream mcdojo goes. As for the kata thing, for me it remains to be seen. If I saw a place that had trained kata effectively then i would gladly say so. Perhaps you should post a video and show us what its all about Ed. Just pokin at ya. Im sure there are a FEW places on the far corners of the earth that can make it work!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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