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#293637 - 10/15/06 01:36 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Funakoshi disapproved of sparring as an acutal sport or competition, but I don't think he totally disapproved of sparring. I'll have to do some research.

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#293638 - 10/15/06 05:58 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: student_of_life]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

ed
good point, point sparing is far removed from the traditional aspects of traditional karate training. funakoshi even disaproved free sparing,




Interesting point that he didint approve of sparring.

The David Mitchell book, which I quoted in the last posted message, also
mentions that Funakoshi disapproved of the sort of free sparring that
eventually became the basis of comptetitve point karate,


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/ea9104ea3fd7dcad


Funakoshi also strongly believed in the practice of kata as being the heart of karate. His distaste for rough sparring and competition was strong

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=805638

These statements mention rough sparring,competition sparring or free sparring. of . Given that I think sparring done to improve training might have been approved.But I am guessing.



We know that Funakoshi disapproved of tournaments and grudgingly tolerated competitive sparring. He wrote clearly in his auto-biography that he did not approve of competitions of any kind, and that he did not think that sport was conducive to learning humility and other Japanese qualities that he held sacred. Having said that, it is pretty clear that Funakoshi’s beliefs could be extrapolated easily to include all sports, since his primary concern in his later years was the development of a proper Japanese citizen, and since any sport would lead to the bad effects he feared, he must have believed that Japanese should not play competitive sports - ever.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/

And I wonder that even if he didnt approve of sparring what were his reasons?





Edited by ANDY44 (10/15/06 06:36 PM)

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#293639 - 10/15/06 08:49 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

And I wonder that even if he didnt approve of sparring what were his reasons?



thats a valid question. I have no idea, not have I read specifics behind his reasoning. I have read that Miyagi trained sparring - not sure what type of sparring. and Mabuni pioneered protective gear in the 30's using available materials or cross-sport borrowing from kendo and what looks like american football pads.

It's my understanding some were trying to make karate work as sport without comprimizing the Art. many abondoned that pursuit. one can speculate that it was discarded since it comprimized too much.

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#293640 - 10/15/06 08:55 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

it's not like that, M.

I like point-sparring, it's fun. but the rules imposed on that type of sparring do not reflect the Art of Goju...no matter how you try and twist it.

sparring for training thats close-in with takedowns, locks and wrap-ups? sure!

but I just can't extract any connection between point-sparring and Goju.

If you disagree, then it's you who should enlighten me.





HI Ed. How do you sparr using the methods found in goju?

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#293641 - 10/15/06 09:10 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
point-spar? no, I use methods from kimura shukokai plus the mish-mash vanilla stuff found in generic long range sparring.

if it's allowed to continue close-in (what most point-sparring places break up as a 'clash')...then more of the goju is better suited.

I think the main reason why point-sparring breaks up clashes is since the judges can't see the scores landing. some tips/strategy from the shukokai group for competitions was to try and land 'clean'. meaning makin in easy for the judge to see and score. it has the effect of over-dramitizing technique for visibility.

those kinds of notions don't translate well to classical subjects.

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#293642 - 10/15/06 09:10 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: ANDY44]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Interesting thread, Ed. I do get what you mean, as sparring is by nature going to be compromised. I think I have an idea of the type of sparring matches you are describing, but you are assuming that you can shut someone down very quickly - which may not be the case.

You are giving me ideas to try for the next video set with RazorFoot, though.
_________________________
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#293643 - 10/15/06 09:26 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

point-spar? no, I use methods from kimura shukokai plus the mish-mash vanilla stuff found in generic long range sparring.

if it's allowed to continue close-in (what most point-sparring places break up as a 'clash')...then more of the goju is better suited.

I think the main reason why point-sparring breaks up clashes is since the judges can't see the scores landing. some tips/strategy from the shukokai group for competitions was to try and land 'clean'. meaning makin in easy for the judge to see and score. it has the effect of over-dramitizing technique for visibility.

those kinds of notions don't translate well to classical subjects.





Just my thoughts,
Ok. To me kata is self defence although I think one or two techniques I have come across would fit nicely in to MMA'S.

True Goju seems to have a lot of techniques taken from kata(although my study of gojo is limited) therefore Self defence.

Competition sparring is not self defence.If Funokoshi based his teaching on kata and kata as I said is meant to be self defence.Then that might be the reason why he didnt like restricted(self defence wise no groin grabs etc) free sparring.


Problem is with out sparring there is elements of training missing. Thus the poss use of restrictive(self defence wise) point sparring to cover these elements?

Isnt that one of the reasons why judo came about?



Edited by ANDY44 (10/15/06 09:44 PM)

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#293644 - 10/15/06 09:44 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats true...and thats why the clash doesn't last long. I'll never forget when morio higaonna visited our dojo in the 70's. he spared against Ken Ogawa (his top student at the time). it wasn't the type of sparring in the recent youtube clips of higaonna in competition. they pretty much eye-locked each other and stalked. then suddenly, a brief clash and Ogawa was on the ground. thats all I remember. 2 minutes of 'stalking', 2 seconds of clash and it was over. nothing superfluous or 'set-up strategy' driven. just raw effective response to whatever threat at the moment. It was like two lions fighting. that was my impression....of course, I was young but I'm trying to recall without exaggurating.

but ask me to recall the hundreds of point-spar matches I've watched, and I couldn't tell you one from the next.

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#293645 - 10/15/06 11:11 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
But Ed, I think you're answering your own question. What you mentioned sounds like what a point sparring match should be like. If you look at WKF or WKC/AAU sparing clashes are allowed for 3 - 5 seconds many times. If nothing is done it is broken up. In point sparring as soon as the distance is closed then you should be looking to put your opponent down, immediately. Due to the sport mentality of wanting to win most people want it broken up to restart instead of working to develop their karate clinch work. Karate is not meant for prolonged struggling in a clinch. However, there are many techniques in kata to address this. As skill increases time in the clinch is reduced. But I believe that is the purpose of most MA clinch work. Hell, Rich Franklin didn't last very long in Anderson Silva's clinch.

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#293646 - 10/15/06 11:52 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well then there must be different versions of point sparring, because the ones I've done are mind-games with trying to out smart the opponent by causing them to put themselves in a disadvantage position. these are long-range tactics with long-range setups. no point-sparring match I've ever seen allows standup grappling or scoring after takedown.

we used to practice sweeping while holding on to the person and hitting them on the way down....then they disallowed that too. now it seems like you can't even grab onto someone in point-sparring. plus the strick rules of 'excessive contact' for just brushing the face. etc...it's a different game.

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