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#293627 - 10/14/06 10:01 PM Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring...
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
after watching "goju" sparring videos on youtube and various sites, all of the tournament point-sparring which is claimed to be 'goju' is virtually indistinguishable from point-sparring in shotokan, TKD, american kenpo, etc.

In dojos which center their training around such sparring in order to win tournaments, the focus moves far away goju principles of fighting methods as contained in it's kata. These tournament based dojos only maintain the style name 'goju' since they happen to include the superficial movements of goju kata curriculum...again, the movements are optimized for appeal to judges - not for utility. tournament goju kata also looks virtually indistiguishable from other mainstream economies of kata movement. robotic, steril and artificial.

I personally don't have a problem with people engaging in tournament...it can be quite fun as long as egos and politics keep in check. but don't pretend it's something that it's not.

The first very large mismatch of goju and training for tournament sparring, is the fighting range. goju kata principles and hence goju as a style is mostly very close-in, grappling-range response. It's main strategies are very far from the tag-sparring goals, no matter how much contact is allowed in sparring.

point-sparring strategy is: score and get out. long-range parry and long-range counter. 'set-up' techniques to out-smart opponent like a game of fast reactive chess. fun stuff, for sure, but there is no correlation to goju principles as a style.

with good instruction, 2-person goju kata principles trains: reflexive response to a close-range threat and elimination of that threat as quickly as possible. adaptive tactile response in stand-up grappling-range. clinch, elbows, knees, neck-cranks, locks, off-balancing, thows, takedowns and all that fun non-point-sparring fighting stuff which would get you disqualified.

If you aren't training fighting principles from goju kata, you aren't training goju. what you are training is the trivialized version of the Art. something that has 'look and feel' from having the curriculum...but nothing in common to goju in practice. eg 'karroty'.

dojos that train both sport and utility...which is the real focus and which is the claim just for marketability sake?

anytime I see a dojo with the words 'self-defense' advertised with tons of trophies in the window...it makes me wonder...well? which is it? sport or utility?

(btw: If someone wishes for me to define 'utility' - forget it. this isn't intended to be a 'kata vs. no-kata' thread...we've already got enough of those floating around.)

also, this thread would apply to any style which point-spars yet claims to be of a style which has dissimilar principles and strategy of utility. in general, training for point-sparring moves Karate further away from Karate, IMO.

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#293628 - 10/14/06 10:16 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Perhaps a Point sparring sucks thread? JK. Actually, this is the case in most arts Ed. The tournament sparring in general isnt designed towards funtion in any other area other than the tournament. Sounds like the sparring matches that I had when i was a kid. Fun, but not functional. No one fights in this manner. Affectively anyways.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#293629 - 10/14/06 11:01 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Chen Zen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

also, this thread would apply to any style which point-spars yet claims to be of a style which has dissimilar principles and strategy of utility.



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#293630 - 10/14/06 11:04 PM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Had to reiterate since you repeatedly use the word KARATE. LOL. Actually, I posted before I read the last line. My fault.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#293631 - 10/15/06 01:12 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Hmm, sounds like someone's been studying REAL karate. Ed, please enlighten the unenlightened.

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#293632 - 10/15/06 01:37 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
it's not like that, M.

I like point-sparring, it's fun. but the rules imposed on that type of sparring do not reflect the Art of Goju...no matter how you try and twist it.

sparring for training thats close-in with takedowns, locks and wrap-ups? sure!

but I just can't extract any connection between point-sparring and Goju.

If you disagree, then it's you who should enlighten me.

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#293633 - 10/15/06 03:03 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, here is my take. Point sparring can be a good training tool if done right. The rules (minus the contact thing) can be used to train basic aspects of karate both goju and shorin. Point fighting can be used to train distance control, basic striking, sweeps, quick footwork, tai sabaki, evasion, and other things. However, it is just a training GAME, that is all. Some people compete in it competitively. There is nothing wrong with this because it is a game. However, it is only training for very basic skills and only a small fraction of what karate really is. The problem is when people develop their karate to win this game and believe it is what karate is really all about.

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#293634 - 10/15/06 09:41 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
ed
good point, point sparing is far removed from the traditional aspects of traditional karate training. funakoshi even disaproved free sparing, i have not read why, and he's never told me so i've come to my own conclusions as to why point sparing has become a popluar event in the last 50 years.

i do spar tho, and i agree that there are lots of leasons that can be learned from the pratice. things like spacial awarness and how to deal with a resisting person. my old shotokan dojo even went so far sometimes as to have 2 and 3 on one fights, just for training purposes mind you, and i think i understand a bit more because of it.

i think you made a real good point too, you don't feel that point sparing captures the essence of the arts idea's, maby thats why the old masters didn't use it much, they tought it for self defence, and self defence is not stalking and bouncing around the other guy, like the bunkai from kata would tell ( unless you do ashihara kata, another thread?)

i guess, if you point spar, then you have to make your own rules, and when you use rules people will use them for them selves and against the other guy. the old masters may have thought "self defence is real life, why make up rules?, just use real life"

wow, thats some serious rambeling......i'll shut up after i say: point sparing can be an ok tool for even us traditional guys, but it's here to stay now, for good or bad, use at own descretion.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#293635 - 10/15/06 09:50 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Chen Zen]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Perhaps a Point sparring sucks thread? JK. Actually, this is the case in most arts Ed. The tournament sparring in general isnt designed towards funtion in any other area other than the tournament. Sounds like the sparring matches that I had when i was a kid. Fun, but not functional. No one fights in this manner. Affectively anyways.





I think karate point sparring has its place. So does pure grappling on the ground. They are methods to train certain aspects.

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#293636 - 10/15/06 09:52 AM Re: Thoughts on Goju and point-sparring... [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

it's not like that, M.

I like point-sparring, it's fun. but the rules imposed on that type of sparring do not reflect the Art of Goju...no matter how you try and twist it.

sparring for training thats close-in with takedowns, locks and wrap-ups? sure!

but I just can't extract any connection between point-sparring and Goju.






HI Ed. How do you sparr using the methods found in goju?

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