FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 22 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 3
Matakiant 2
Zombie Zero 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
Today at 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#293599 - 10/14/06 09:37 PM Teacher vs. Instructor
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello -

Someone this week commented on how one of the sensei's within our organization was an "instructor", not a "teacher". "Instructor", in this case, was meant to be less favorable than "teacher".

While I know which sensei's have been great (and not so great) for me, I don't know if I could make the distinction between instructor and teacher.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on how, or why there is a difference?

Top
#293600 - 10/15/06 01:49 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:

Hello -

Someone this week commented on how one of the sensei's within our organization was an "instructor", not a "teacher". "Instructor", in this case, was meant to be less favorable than "teacher".

While I know which sensei's have been great (and not so great) for me, I don't know if I could make the distinction between instructor and teacher.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on how, or why there is a difference?




Actually the definitions vary from person to person but here is what the terms mean to me-

Instructor- is generally someone who is able to stand in front of a group and pass on knowledge to them. Usually this is done in a somewhat scripted manner, similar to actually reading from a curriculum. While they might be good at passing on this information it doesn't mean they have a true understanding of what is is they are passing on or why they are passing it they way that they are. It's the common "this is how I was taught to do it, so it's how I will pass it on" idea, generally with no questions asked.

Teacher- is someone who not only knows the material but understands the hows and whys behind it. They don't just present the material like reading from a script, they actually modify their presentations to address different learning styles, to engage every student. They never pass on material without first knowing why it's being passed on- for art, for tradition, for self-defense, etc.

The easiest way to tell the difference between a Teacher and an Instructor is to see how they respond to various questions. Do they reply in a texbook-like fashion, with no thought (Instructor) or do they reply in a way that helps the student relate to the answer (Teacher)? In other words, Instructors just give you the direct answer whereas Teachers tell you the whys behind the answer, they help you understand how the answer pertains to you. In other words, Teachers teach you about the answer and guide you to success. Here is are some common answers that an Instructor might give when asked why a technique is peformed a specific way- "because that's how I learned it", "that's the way it's been done for centuries"
"because I said so", etc. One of the most common signs of an Instructor is when he tells the student- "never question me".


Hope this helps.



Steve Zorn, ICPS

Top
#293601 - 10/15/06 02:25 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Sen means literally, "before" or "preceding." Sei is the character that means "life. "The life that came before," then, is a poetic way to denote someone who has walked along the Way before you and who may now show you the path as well.




http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue6/sensei.html

Top
#293602 - 10/15/06 04:26 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: szorn]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:


Instructor- is generally someone who is able to stand in front of a group and pass on knowledge to them. Usually this is done in a somewhat scripted manner, similar to actually reading from a curriculum. While they might be good at passing on this information it doesn't mean they have a true understanding of what is is they are passing on or why they are passing it they way that they are. It's the common "this is how I was taught to do it, so it's how I will pass it on" idea, generally with no questions asked.




Hi -

You have described perfectly the sensei who was labelled an "instructor".

If you're looking for more "internal" growth, or the feeling that you are on some kind of path, you're not going to get any kind of direction from this sensei (unless you have come in seeking this, or discover this on your own).

If you're looking for plain vanilla, straight-up techniques, without a greater understanding of "why" (bunkai), this is the sensei for you.

Conversely, there have been many great sensei "teachers" in our organization. They are flexible in their approach, provide a variety of understandings for a technique
and often impart "pearls", some small snippet offered that is greater than a punch, kick, or block. It gives you something to think about, long after you have moved on to a new technique.

Although "sensei" (to me, means very roughly: those in front of you who have travelled the path before you - and this isn't an easy definition for me to articulate), I guess there are distinctions between being a "sensei-instructor" and "sensei-teacher". Does this make sense?

Also, what would it take to move from the realm of "instructor" into the area of "sensei"?

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (10/16/06 02:47 PM)

Top
#293603 - 10/15/06 08:29 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
To move on from instructor to becoming a teacher not only must you understand the various why and why nots of your art, you must also be able to look beyond your own bias, identify your own strengths and weaknesses as well as others and your particular style. You must also be able to relate the material and yourself to the student.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293604 - 10/15/06 08:39 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Senseihonor:

There was an interesting book "Martial Arts Teachers on Teaching" done fairly recently by a author by the name of Carol Wiley. (believe it was done by Frog Publishing maybe?)

It was a curious book which described the views of an assorted group of martial arts instructors on the topic of instruction. Some presentations within the book were far, far better written than others!

Szorn covered it pretty well. I was unable to get to the Furyu article yet... but given as I was an avid supporter and "lifelong subscriber" of the magazine, I am fairly certain I already enjoyed it at least once before

Given only that choice, an instructor is someone with whom we are not that "close". We do not have a strong connection toward them/their basic approach-ideas of the art that we share. If the two titles were in a pyramid, a teacher is the higher of the two in my view for whatever that might be worth

A teacher is someone who ignites the fires within us... they kept ~the passion~ alive. A brief time, a lifetime, regardless they presented us with doors and the information and helped us through them to the best of their ability(ies). A teacher is always an instructor but not always in the reverse.

They are words, and can be synonymous or have shades of different meanings. What is important, is what YOU attribute to these women & men whose "spark" you choose to follow! If you do not understand, perceive them as being in a mental/emotional space you wish to emulate, to copy, to follow... then find another person a TEACHER whom you are willing to trust.

Being a teacher is about trust .

Jeff

Top
#293605 - 10/16/06 09:38 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'There is no teacher without a student.' The subtle semantic difference between 'instructor' and 'teacher' implies a relationship; I may value an instructor, but consider a teacher to be precious.

Top
#293606 - 10/16/06 09:59 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: Chen Zen]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

You must also be able to relate the material and yourself to the student.




This is an interesting point.

Let's say you have 3 students who are learning the same kata. One learns best by watching, writting it down in their own words and uses this as their best reference. Another learns by understanding the bunkai (application). The third learns best by getting the bare bones down, then honing and refining the kata over time.

The sensei (instructor) let's the 3 students muddle it out themselves. Frustrations are higher than normal. There isn't a great deal of appreciation for how much the students are struggling.

The sensei (teacher) will provide the 3 students with the approach that works best for them. Frustrations are still going to be high since they're learning something new, but perhaps a light will go on quicker for the students led by this sensei. This sensei also understands what the challenges are like for these students and offers some kind of motivator to keep the students focused.

Both types of sensei's have lots to offer, but I would hazard a guess and say that the sensei (teacher) is the one who will have students that stay for the long run, while the sensei (instructor) fills a shorter-term need.

Top
#293607 - 10/16/06 10:49 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
clmibb Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
I never really sat down and thought about the difference between an instructor and teacher. I used them interchangably. I won't now. The word instructor doesn't do my teacher any justice. Thanks for the clarification!

Casey
_________________________
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan


Top
#293608 - 10/16/06 02:08 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: clmibb]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
senseihonor I'm glad you brought this topic up, as its really gotten me to thinking about the instruction at my school, and my future goals in the club.

I don't really believe there is a difference between instructor and teacher, but rather a difference in the quality of instruction. Learning to teach well, is, I think, more difficult than learning to kick or punch well.

For instance, at my school, anyone red-belt or higher can be expected to "Start Class" at any time. This basically means they must run the class through the standard set of warmups. Very little occurs on the students end as far as new information, but the intensity and motivation of the person can greatly effect the intensity and motivation of the rest of the class.

Out of this group, there are a handful of students (late teen and adult only) who have shown an interest or the potential to become an instructor. These "instructors" can be expected to take over any class, most often the kids classes. The most important qualification in this situation is the ability to keep the students motivated and active. Instructions are often repeated verbatim from their own class, and the amount of learning that occurs is often limited due to the instructors ability to transmit that information and the students ability to absorb it.

Overtime these instructors gain experience and skill in learning to teach their students. Some never learn this or care to, but others eventually learn to identify the problems their students are having, and learn how to best help the student correct it. They are genuinely interested in the welfare of their students, and the students respond to this. You can always identify a good instructor by looking at the student.

Is the student motivated and interested in what they are doing? Do they appear to respect their instructor and listen when he or she is speaking? Is the instructor willing to listen to the questions or concerns of the student, and capable of admitting when they don't have an answer? Do the students even ask questions of the instructor? And to what lengths will the instructor go to to get the information their students need? And do they have a passion for what they do?

Laura

Top
#293609 - 10/16/06 11:33 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
the_jonn Offline
On the bubble

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 68
like I always say the better the instructor the better you will be... it takes days and weeks and months of training mate, you need to be able to identify the dangers yourself and not always rely on the instructor observe on what he teaches you and work on your mistakes afterwards.

Top
#293610 - 10/17/06 03:44 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: the_jonn]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
I still prefer "Coach"
_________________________

Top
#293611 - 10/18/06 09:39 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: AndrewGreen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Even with the word coach you have the same problem. You've got Tom Landry and T-ball coaching screaming at the kids "Earl" you've got phil Jackson and you have Bobby Knight.

Top
#293612 - 10/18/06 10:57 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: oldman]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Yes, and there are good teachers and bad teachers. Good instructors and bad instructors. And of course, good coaches and bad coaches.

My job is to improve the performance of the people in my class. Not to impart a specific curriculum, or teach history or philosophy. Just to make them better at what they do, and that means different things for different people.
_________________________

Top
#293613 - 10/18/06 11:00 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: AndrewGreen]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Then you are not a teacher, and have highlighted the difference between a 'coach' and a 'teacher'.

Quote:

Not to impart a specific curriculum



Top
#293614 - 10/18/06 11:42 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: AndrewGreen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Andrew,
I have a question for you and I do mean this respectfully. Do you feel that you are not teaching history or Philosophy?

Top
#293615 - 10/18/06 12:30 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
A teacher is also an instructor.

The teacher knows when to become the instructor and when to be the teacher. An instructor canít seem to make the transformation from one to the other, but and instructor can learn to become a teacher although it is a difficult task indeed. On the other hand,
a teacher can sometimes find it difficult to be a good instructor but it seems the transformation is much easer for the teacher to become an instructor.

I think the key factor is compassion, compassion for the students, and for the Martial Arts. If you donít care for your students then you will never be a great teacher! You can be a great instructor but never a great teacher. If you donít care for the Martial Arts then you are just a student pretending to teach or instruct.

I will give an example:

In my old school we had an instructor who was very good at doing that, instructing. His technique was flawless! He could show you the proper way to kick, punch, strike or block. But, he could not explain this so everyone could understand. He would not take the time to work through the technique or explain the why in the technique. Even if there was a privet lesson, he would still move on to other things to fast.

He could not understand how to teach things so they could be grasped by the student. Now some of the responsibility falls on the student, but if they can not grasp a concept then they will not get it. He lacked compassion. If one has compassion then you will recognize the struggles and work to over come them. He was often perplexed why some of the students did not get it!

We had an instructor that was asked once by the school owner, senior instructor, how do you know that your class needs to work on there side kicks more instead of there round kicks? The answer was; that during class the previous day many of the students were not getting the proper chamber or re chamber during drills. I thought we will work on practical applications and defenses against a poorly executed side kick today instead of the round kick.

This instructor under stood that the students were having difficulties by watching the students and paying attention to there mood, actions and reactions.

I think this instructor had compassion for his students and cared enough to modify the training to help get them back on track.

Top
#293616 - 10/21/06 09:24 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: BulldogTKD]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Compassion, empathy, recognition, intuition - all missing in one particular sensei within our organization. He hasn't figured out why new students don't stick around longer than yellow belt, has no clue that his newest black belts loath him in numerous ways and he doesn't seem concerned that a few of his students who got their black belts didn't continue with their training.

Compassion, empathy, recognition, intuition - all present in another sensei. She has students follow her from one dojo to another, are happy to assist her at any class, they attend her seminars and fall at her feet in worship (worship mixed with huge doses of deep respect).

Top
#293617 - 10/22/06 09:14 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: AndrewGreen]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I guess I could see how the philosophical side might not always enter the dojo but I don't understand how you could teach without following some kind of curriculum/teaching plan. I also wonder how you can teach a MA and not discuss the origins and development of your particular style.

Quote:

Not to impart a specific curriculum, or teach history or philosophy.



Top
#293618 - 11/01/06 11:33 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Does anyone have any recommendations on teaching material that might translate well into the dojo?

Top
#293619 - 11/02/06 08:53 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Does anyone have any recommendations on teaching material that might translate well into the dojo?




What are you asking? Material for drills, sparring, selfdefense?

Top
#293620 - 11/02/06 01:52 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: BulldogTKD]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

What are you asking? Material for drills, sparring, selfdefense?



Oops. Sorry about being unclear. I'm looking for any general material on how to teach (ie. in a classroom, training courses, etc.,). It doesn't have to be MA specific, just any kind of teaching resource that might help move my teaching style beyond the "instructor" approach.

Don't know if such a thing exists or not but any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

Top
#293621 - 11/02/06 02:12 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You dont need material or reference books for that. The most important thing is relating to the student. Know your students and have a relationship with them. You must know yourself too. When you know yourself, and you know another person, it is easier to train them because you can find a common ground in which to relate the material to them. Start a small group of students. Four or six. Get to know them, train with them, and conversate with them. Be there friend. Then you can teach them anything.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#293622 - 11/02/06 03:42 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
You might look up the work of Parker Palmer. In particular his book "The courage to Teach".

http://www.amazon.com/Courage-Teach-Expl...TF8&s=books

Top
#293623 - 11/02/06 09:20 PM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: oldman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks for the biblio ref, Mark. I scanned through the excerpts and it looks like a keeper for the reference library.


Top
#293624 - 11/03/06 12:17 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: senseihonor]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I like to work technique into our warm up so I can correct mistakes, see how the student is progressing but most of all to give praise when something is done correctly. These are never empty praises like, good job, but specific praises, like nice rotation on that punch or your power on that kick is much better.

There was a student that I taught that had problems with her step side kick but worked very hard to get it down. Well this particular class she was nailing it. I stopped the class and called her up front to demonstrate her great technique. She did a splendid job and I complimented her on her nice form and awesome power and she said very loud, Thank you sir! And she got back in line, but, I noticed that her technique was bad on the other leg and I said, you have done an outstanding job on improving your kick on your right leg but your left leg sucks. She laughed and said very loud, Thank you sir!

Top
#293625 - 11/06/06 09:38 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: oldman]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi -

Thanks for the suggestion! I'm adding it to the top of the MA reading pile that is growing faster than I can keep up with...

Top
#293626 - 11/06/06 09:47 AM Re: Teacher vs. Instructor [Re: Chen Zen]
senseihonor Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

Know your students and have a relationship with them.



Quote:

Start a small group of students. Four or six. Get to know them, train with them, and conversate with them. Be there friend. Then you can teach them anything.



Hi -
I've finally taken steps to do this. Some of my initiative towards doing this has come from reading the posts in this forum.

I'll be teaching a class of kids starting in January and I've known most of them for at least 4 years. Hopefully, having had some kind of relationship with the students outside the dojo will help with what we'll be doing in class.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki, tkd_high_green 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga