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#293469 - 10/25/06 01:14 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

I am curious to know what kind of evidence would you accept as demonstrating aikido's limited effectiveness?

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#293470 - 10/25/06 07:24 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
First off, discussion threads exist for a reason, so others may follow the flow of the discussion. Posting in the right thread would be the right and logical thing to do.

See my reply here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...80#Post15894453

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#293471 - 10/26/06 06:35 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
This got me thinking "you grab my wrist and I break your nose" just think about what this means to you.

First off, trying to fully commit yourself for a small joint is very hazardous. Wristlocks take both hands to apply enough pressure to gain control of the person through that source of pain. Look at how active a MMA practitioner is they are constantly moving, constantly working and never committing unless it’s to knock you out or take you down and even then they know what position to be in so you can’t react fast enough.

Aikido is an old traditional martial arts that still have some of the same tendencies that a lot of traditional arts do. They are too comfortable at what they do they see no need for change and also it’s too hard to change something that has been done for generation on in. They don't work on full out spontaneous aggression instead most attacks delivered are fully or overly committed by their attackers so the technique are for sure going to work.

Now if you have been in matches (karate, boxing, MT, MMA, even TKD) you let me know if you can ever can ever catch a punch or a kick that is thrown at you or ever direct it with a full body movement for that matter.

Lastly, we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.
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#293472 - 10/26/06 01:28 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Eveal]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:

we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.




And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.

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#293473 - 10/26/06 08:55 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.




And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.




Unfortunately, most of the people with the right attitudes about contact martial arts don't join Aikido, hence the generalisation about the art. Of course, if you go to a good school with good instructors and good students, you'll find people who can fight very effectively. However, like TKD (I hate to admit), this quality is often diluted in our arts.
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#293474 - 10/26/06 10:17 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.




It's not entirely true, but I get the point you are trying to put across - namely that there is a tendency to fight how you train, which is quite valid. But to extend the argument to a style and equating a style to a method of training is tenuous, although I will concede that they are intimately link.

Just so we are clear....

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#293475 - 10/26/06 10:22 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Unfortunately, most of the people with the right attitudes about contact martial arts don't join Aikido, hence the generalisation about the art. Of course, if you go to a good school with good instructors and good students, you'll find people who can fight very effectively. However, like TKD (I hate to admit), this quality is often diluted in our arts.




I think we need to be careful with the sweeping generalizations. Aikido is very much a contact-based martial art - as is all martial arts. The distinction is one of DEGREE of contact and LOCUS of contact.

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#293476 - 10/27/06 06:41 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Exactly, there is a great deal of contact in Aikido, however, a good number of Aikido practitioners do not practice with the contact levels found in many other MA, such as Muay Thai or MMA gyms. This isn't because Aikido can not be trained in that fashion, but because it has the image of being a softer style and that image doesn't appeal to many of the people who would want to study an art and fight with that level of contact. It's not the art but the artist, and the image of Aikido often dissuades good MAists from training in its style.

Of course, the image bears little resemblance to the actual art.

P.S. There are some schools where students never experience contact at all, so some MA training can be considered non-contact.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (10/27/06 06:42 AM)
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#293477 - 10/27/06 07:57 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Leo_E_49 wrote

Quote:

Exactly, there is a great deal of contact in Aikido, however, a good number of Aikido practitioners do not practice with the contact levels found in many other MA, such as Muay Thai or MMA gyms. This isn't because Aikido can not be trained in that fashion, but because it has the image of being a softer style and that image doesn't appeal to many of the people who would want to study an art and fight with that level of contact. It's not the art but the artist, and the image of Aikido often dissuades good MAists from training in its style.





Those are pretty valid points except for the very first one – I have NEVER seen aikido practiced (either in person or on video) with any reasonable amount of contact. That doesn’t meant that people don’t, just that I personally haven’t seen it. I don’t know a lot of folks who have so I’m assuming that sort of practice is rare, or “very secretive” – like on the level of national security classified information is secret.


Quote:


Of course, the image bears little resemblance to the actual art.

P.S. There are some schools where students never experience contact at all, so some MA training can be considered non-contact.






Arts can change completely when a partner is allowed to bust you in your mouth. I would LIKE to see more “full contact aikido”. Perhaps have students wear head-gear and a mouthpiece, allowing open hand shots or, closed fist shots with smaller MMA fight gloves. You could dial the power up and down depending on experience levels of the practitioners.

Do you know what would happen if folks did that?? Aikido would not continue to exist as we know it.

Check out these videos and see if there is EVER any realistic contact or for that matter, any realistic training:

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/video.htm


I’ve been looking through them and haven’t found anything yet. It looks like all the aikido that I have ever seen both in person and on video from around the WORLD. Perhaps it is just another “demonstration” series, which is about the only thing that I ever really find. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to provide some links to video showing more contact and actual resistance.

Thanks

-John

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#293478 - 10/27/06 10:42 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Tomiki Aikido (video links on the page) -

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm
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