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#293439 - 10/14/06 08:50 AM Aikido in MMA
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I've heard people say this a lot,
"Aikido is not good for mma because most martial artists dont commit fully and you cannot do wrist techiques due to the gloves both you and opponent wears."

What do you aikidokas think?

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#293440 - 10/14/06 09:21 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Speaking of MMA, I can say without a doubt that in it's 13 year history, I have never seen a single aikido technique executed with any success.

That is mainly because all of the fighters are reasonably good. They don't overcommit and they aren't caught by surprise - which IMO, constitutes the two biggest factors necessary for the successful execution of an aikido technique.

As I said, 13 years have passed there really hasn't been any "aikido" at all. I'm betting ANOTHER 13 years could pass and you'd STILL not see it.


-John

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#293441 - 10/14/06 02:54 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
My friend is an Aikido instructor who also does MMA.

He showed us a few Aikido techniques to deal with things like the shoot, but from my own training, I'd say there are better ways of handling the takedown than he showed us. He knew it himself, and when we talked about it he said that most people in class studied Aikido only, so anything they learnt against the shoot was better than nothing.

Agree with Jkogas, I don't think Aikido is suited to MMA, in terms of the sportified MMA. It can work as a means of SD though against different sorts of attacks.

Another point worth making is that my friend said that he wouldn't use Aikido in a MMA tournament even if he could. He said it goes against the spirit of Aikido. That is worth considering too. Maybe Aikido hasn't been used in MMA, or someone hasn't attempted to use it in a MMA comp, as many Aikidoka would view it as going against the spirit of Aikido.
_________________________
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#293442 - 10/14/06 03:26 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I think John and Prizewriter have pretty much summed it up. Aikido has a different ethos than an MMA like art. That is, Aikidokas primarily train to deal with untrained assailants and common offensive movements. They do not train on the whole to deal with a MMAist with 10 years experience in BJJ and MT. The techniques themselves are generally used against common grabs and strikes that one might expect to see from an untrained person in an everyday self-defense situation, they are not techniques I can see Liddel using.

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#293443 - 10/15/06 10:48 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Supremor]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Aikido folks are severely hampered in MMA competition by the rules. Small joint locks are not allowed in MMA competition, despite them being quite effective. They were allowed in my old JKD school's grappling sessions, and I was able to use them sometimes when my armbar attempts failed.

And yes, I know that the early UFC's allowed them. Not sure why more people didn't use them.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293444 - 10/15/06 10:54 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Keeping in mind that it was a movie, Steven Segal used to use recognizable aikido techniques when he threw the bad guys around.

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#293445 - 10/15/06 03:20 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

I've heard people say this a lot,
"Aikido is not good for mma because most martial artists dont commit fully and you cannot do wrist techiques due to the gloves both you and opponent wears."

What do you aikidokas think?

-Tek


I would say that when talking about the sport of MMA (UFC, etc.) Aikido is put at a disadvantage because of the rules. The rules often do not allow small joint manipulation. Furthermore MMA competition requires you to win by knockout or submission (idealy) while Aikido is designed for the self defense strategy of knocking the opponent down and running away. Finaly many of Aikido's advantages such as multiple attackers training and the ability to cause minimal damage to your oponent are not considered in MMA competition.

On the other hand I have seen certain aikido takedowns added to BJJ (specificly the one where you shoot in and push the opponents head back and down to the floor).

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#293446 - 10/15/06 03:56 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Umbra_777]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't give a lot of weight to the small joint manipulation argument. Small joints are much more difficult to control than are large joints -- particularly when you standing up and moving around, firing shots back and forth. Even with that being the case, it's STILL difficult to get submissions on those large joints. Why would small joints thus be easier to manipulate?


-John

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#293447 - 10/16/06 12:17 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
I'm sorry to break the news to all aikidoka but aikido is one of the lowest ranking martial arts in terms of effectiveness.

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#293448 - 10/16/06 01:16 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TaekwondoWned]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Cite please. Please reference the source for that statement. If it's your opinion, then state that it is, in your opinion. Otherwise, comments like this are to be taken as flame bait.

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#293449 - 10/16/06 01:37 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TaekwondoWned]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I'm sorry to break the news to all but troll-kwon-do is one of the lowest ranking past-times in terms of usefulness.




There, fixed your typo. No thanks necessary but you are still most welcomed.

Xwf
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#293450 - 10/16/06 01:50 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: xuzen_628]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quote:

I'm sorry to break the news to all but troll-kwon-do is one of the lowest ranking past-times in terms of usefulness.




There, fixed your typo. No thanks necessary but you are still most welcomed.

Xwf




Don't be sour just because aikido wouldn't work against the mentally sound.

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#293451 - 10/16/06 03:04 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TaekwondoWned]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Oh dear... it gets better. Against the mentally sound...

If you have a point, argue it cogently. Why is aikido not effective? Where is the citation that states that aikido is the lowest ranking MA in terms of effectiveness? Who conducted that study? What were the parameters of that study? Why would it not work against the mentally sound?

And lastly, why do the mentally unsound keep posting here?

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#293452 - 10/16/06 03:18 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


And lastly, why do the mentally unsound keep posting here?






As for the small joint argument. I tend to err un the side of John on this, small joints are fiddly to manipulate, I know I find it one of the hardest things to do, granted I don't have extensive grappling experience. Arm bars and chokes are so much easier to apply since they involve gross motor movements. When the adrenaline starts pumping, it is well known that it is more difficult to do fine motor movements, so there may be a question over small jjoint locks there.

On the other hand, studies in competitive sport show that when an athlete has trained sport specifically to use a skill, those who are "highly trained" seem to perform the sport skill just as well as they would in practice. The question is to what degree good sparring can mimic the conditions of an MMA match, which would make both combatants I would think very nervous and "up for it"(in sports terms "high arousal").

As I say, I err on the side of Kogas, but I'm sure that it's possible to use small joint manipulation effectively.

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#293453 - 10/16/06 09:30 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Aikido isn't all small joint manipulations.

However, the heavy focus on small joint manipulations in Aikido serves a totally different purpose - other than small joint manipulations.

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#293454 - 10/17/06 08:13 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
Frogleg Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 2
Aikido is not meant for competitions of sport as it is a budo art. Designed for life and death situations not for competitions of bruises.
As far as it being effective, just look at the the police and military around the world that use it every day to stay alive and subdue attackers that arent out to "win" but to kill you.
Also I will not reply to the trolls that I have seen already, but if you have a serious question I would be more than happy to do the best I can helping you out please send e-mail as I dont scan forums much as evidenced by my # of posts... ...

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#293455 - 10/17/06 09:17 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Aikido isn't all small joint manipulations.

However, the heavy focus on small joint manipulations in Aikido serves a totally different purpose - other than small joint manipulations.






Just curious; do you consider the wrist a small joint?


-John

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#293456 - 10/17/06 11:43 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Depends on how big the person's wrist is... doesn't it?

I guess I would consider the wrist as a small joint - on the proviso that I can get my hands around the wrist. On a much bigger person, it is nearly impossible for the smaller person to grasp the wrist/hand, so it may be necessary to move down to smaller phalangeal joints to obtain the necessary leverage.

FWIW.

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#293457 - 10/18/06 02:49 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I think the person most qualified to respond to this is probably Jason DeLucia. I'm not sure how much "aikido" he does or uses in MMA, or what his "Combat Aikido" entails and how far it diverges from the "mainstream" flavor. But I am under the impression that he has successfully utilized aiki principles within an MMA context.

And that really is the crux of the matter. I don't think it is so much the "technique", but rather the ability to successful utilize and apply the technical principles.

Besides, many arts share many techniques in common. There are only so many ways to twist, bend, fold, lock, pin, throw, strike. So you can't say that "such and such" a technique is an aikido or jujitsu or whatever technique.

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#293458 - 10/18/06 08:18 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Just curious; do you consider the wrist a small joint?


-John




Just to play devil's advocate here for a second. A relevant question would be, do MMA guys consider the ankle to be a small joint? If you allow ankle locks, and the wrist is analogous to the ankle, shouldn't wrist locks be allowed?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293459 - 10/18/06 05:03 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I am thinking of getting Delucias Combat Aikido series. Im not quite sure yet if it's worth it. He has taken some serious beat downs.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#293460 - 10/18/06 05:10 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Matt,

Good point.

I myself prefer finger locks before wrist locks, and in actuality for me it is easier to apply an arm bar on a person than a wrist lock. HOwever, having said that, an arm bar as jkogas said is easier because it's considered a big joint/target. In MMA they do not allow the small open hand strike to vital targets that would cause distractions and permit easy access to wrist and finger locks. No attacks to the throat, eye gauges, groin shots, pinching ect. The stuff that I consider real and simple self defense.

For me once I have finger or wrist lock it is very easy for me to transition into an arm bar or shoulder lock and tons of other locks and holds.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#293461 - 10/18/06 05:35 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TeK9]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
My experience is that finger locks are somewhat easy to get, but equally easy to get out of. Wrist locks are more reliable, both when they are done on me and when I use them.

And I am not suggesting that arm bars, etc be ignored in favor of wrist locks. I just find it contradictory that many MMA folks (seem to) have something against wrist locks, but ankle locks are OK.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293462 - 10/18/06 06:04 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Matt-

Here is the deal with the wrist and ankle locks argument. The wrist locks (and throws) that guys have a problem with (myself included) are the one's from a STANDING position - ala, "aikido". You don't execute ankle locks when both people are standing and trading shots (either).

However on the ground, I'll go for wrist locks as well as ankle locks. In fact, I don't care WHAT I lock when on the ground (neck cranks, face locks, wrist locks, elbow locks, shoulder locks, twister spine locks, knee bars, achiles locks, heel hooks, toe holds -- it doesn't matter). The difference there is that I have more control over my opponent (when he is on the ground) as opposed to when he's standing and able to move around.

As much as I have studied joint locks and submission, in NO WAY am I a fan of trying to apply joint locks from a standing/free movement position, and I have seen them demonstrated in variety of different martial arts styles. I am just not sold on that idea in the least.



-John

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#293463 - 10/18/06 06:19 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Understood. I was referring to wrist locks on the ground. I have had very little luck with them in stand-up.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293464 - 10/18/06 06:39 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
In my opinion, aikido isn't defined as much by it's "ground work" as it is by its standing approach.




-John

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#293465 - 10/18/06 07:41 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I do believe that locks where you are standing and they are on the ground can work though. That way they can't manouvre out of your lock because they're on the ground. Doesn't make much difference to the locks imho.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#293466 - 10/18/06 08:24 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I do believe that locks where you are standing and they are on the ground can work though. That way they can't manouvre out of your lock because they're on the ground.






How difficult would that be though? You're standing and your opponent is on the ground?? imagine that and see if that makes sense. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Anyone with a picture of this?



-John

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#293467 - 10/19/06 08:11 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Perhaps Leo is referring to a follow-up to something, like a judo throw, like a hip throw, where you maintain control of the person as you throw them, then apply the joint manipulation after they land. That is IMO difficult to do, because most people will squirm somewhat when they hit the ground, freeing themselves of your grip.

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#293468 - 10/19/06 02:52 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Supremor]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I was referring to locks done after throws (assuming you can do a Judo throw on your opponent). There are a number of locks which can be setup while your opponent is in the air which can be applied when they land. If you don't manage to get the lock on, sure they can escape but once the lock is on, it's significantly more difficult.

This one here seems ok to me as an example:
http://www.mahunter.com/ujj/techniques/traditional/yellow/hip_throw_shoulder/index.html

Doubt they could be done effectively against someone not wearing long sleeves, but in this country that's not a problem.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (10/19/06 02:53 PM)
_________________________
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(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#293469 - 10/25/06 01:14 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

I am curious to know what kind of evidence would you accept as demonstrating aikido's limited effectiveness?

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#293470 - 10/25/06 07:24 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
First off, discussion threads exist for a reason, so others may follow the flow of the discussion. Posting in the right thread would be the right and logical thing to do.

See my reply here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...80#Post15894453

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#293471 - 10/26/06 06:35 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
This got me thinking "you grab my wrist and I break your nose" just think about what this means to you.

First off, trying to fully commit yourself for a small joint is very hazardous. Wristlocks take both hands to apply enough pressure to gain control of the person through that source of pain. Look at how active a MMA practitioner is they are constantly moving, constantly working and never committing unless it’s to knock you out or take you down and even then they know what position to be in so you can’t react fast enough.

Aikido is an old traditional martial arts that still have some of the same tendencies that a lot of traditional arts do. They are too comfortable at what they do they see no need for change and also it’s too hard to change something that has been done for generation on in. They don't work on full out spontaneous aggression instead most attacks delivered are fully or overly committed by their attackers so the technique are for sure going to work.

Now if you have been in matches (karate, boxing, MT, MMA, even TKD) you let me know if you can ever can ever catch a punch or a kick that is thrown at you or ever direct it with a full body movement for that matter.

Lastly, we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.
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#293472 - 10/26/06 01:28 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Eveal]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:

we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.




And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.

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#293473 - 10/26/06 08:55 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

we have said it from time and time again its not the style that wins your fights its how you train to win your fights.




And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.




Unfortunately, most of the people with the right attitudes about contact martial arts don't join Aikido, hence the generalisation about the art. Of course, if you go to a good school with good instructors and good students, you'll find people who can fight very effectively. However, like TKD (I hate to admit), this quality is often diluted in our arts.
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#293474 - 10/26/06 10:17 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

And i have pointed out that the dichotomy between "style" and "training" is a false one. In reality, "style" and "training" are intimately linked. Muay Thai is Muay Thai largely because how how Muay Thai fighters train. If MT fighters trained differently, MT itself would be a very different style. The same hold true for aikido, TKD, and any other style out there.




It's not entirely true, but I get the point you are trying to put across - namely that there is a tendency to fight how you train, which is quite valid. But to extend the argument to a style and equating a style to a method of training is tenuous, although I will concede that they are intimately link.

Just so we are clear....

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#293475 - 10/26/06 10:22 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Unfortunately, most of the people with the right attitudes about contact martial arts don't join Aikido, hence the generalisation about the art. Of course, if you go to a good school with good instructors and good students, you'll find people who can fight very effectively. However, like TKD (I hate to admit), this quality is often diluted in our arts.




I think we need to be careful with the sweeping generalizations. Aikido is very much a contact-based martial art - as is all martial arts. The distinction is one of DEGREE of contact and LOCUS of contact.

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#293476 - 10/27/06 06:41 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Exactly, there is a great deal of contact in Aikido, however, a good number of Aikido practitioners do not practice with the contact levels found in many other MA, such as Muay Thai or MMA gyms. This isn't because Aikido can not be trained in that fashion, but because it has the image of being a softer style and that image doesn't appeal to many of the people who would want to study an art and fight with that level of contact. It's not the art but the artist, and the image of Aikido often dissuades good MAists from training in its style.

Of course, the image bears little resemblance to the actual art.

P.S. There are some schools where students never experience contact at all, so some MA training can be considered non-contact.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (10/27/06 06:42 AM)
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#293477 - 10/27/06 07:57 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
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Leo_E_49 wrote

Quote:

Exactly, there is a great deal of contact in Aikido, however, a good number of Aikido practitioners do not practice with the contact levels found in many other MA, such as Muay Thai or MMA gyms. This isn't because Aikido can not be trained in that fashion, but because it has the image of being a softer style and that image doesn't appeal to many of the people who would want to study an art and fight with that level of contact. It's not the art but the artist, and the image of Aikido often dissuades good MAists from training in its style.





Those are pretty valid points except for the very first one – I have NEVER seen aikido practiced (either in person or on video) with any reasonable amount of contact. That doesn’t meant that people don’t, just that I personally haven’t seen it. I don’t know a lot of folks who have so I’m assuming that sort of practice is rare, or “very secretive” – like on the level of national security classified information is secret.


Quote:


Of course, the image bears little resemblance to the actual art.

P.S. There are some schools where students never experience contact at all, so some MA training can be considered non-contact.






Arts can change completely when a partner is allowed to bust you in your mouth. I would LIKE to see more “full contact aikido”. Perhaps have students wear head-gear and a mouthpiece, allowing open hand shots or, closed fist shots with smaller MMA fight gloves. You could dial the power up and down depending on experience levels of the practitioners.

Do you know what would happen if folks did that?? Aikido would not continue to exist as we know it.

Check out these videos and see if there is EVER any realistic contact or for that matter, any realistic training:

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/video.htm


I’ve been looking through them and haven’t found anything yet. It looks like all the aikido that I have ever seen both in person and on video from around the WORLD. Perhaps it is just another “demonstration” series, which is about the only thing that I ever really find. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to provide some links to video showing more contact and actual resistance.

Thanks

-John

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#293478 - 10/27/06 10:42 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Tomiki Aikido (video links on the page) -

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm
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#293479 - 10/27/06 11:12 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: MattJ]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Ummm, none of those videos are working for me Matt. Anyone else having any luck?

John, I've never seen what you might call "full contact" aikido either. That might just be that the philosophy behind Aikido does not suit an MMA type environment. Personally, I just don't think Aikido practitioners are training to deal with other MAists. I don't have a problem with that, since thye majority of people out there don't have experience in MA, or at least will be unlikely to use it well under stressful conditions. Having said that, if Aikido is not practiced under such a resisting environment, it does bring into question whether the Aikidokas will be able to do their techniques under stressful conditions.

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#293480 - 10/27/06 11:29 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Supremor]
MattJ Offline
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They all work for me.
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#293481 - 10/27/06 11:30 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Tomiki isn't really full contact. And I would concur with John, most aikido isn't done full contact. However, the brutal applications are very well hidden in the art. Take for example, irimi nage. Most aikidoka do a rather pathetic version and expect uke to fall over. I don't. I show how to break the neck on the throw. Obviously this sort of thing can't be practised in a training scenario, so we are left with a facsimile of something akin to a dance.

The unwritten contract between uke and nage during practise is one of duty of care - which I'm sure is the same in any other martial art. After all, if you hurt your training partner, not many will want to train with you. So we end up doing a less realistic technique.

The problem is, most people get stuck in the mentality, that that is how the technique is done - forgetting that the martial intent is behind every single technique we do.

But then again, I wouldn't call what I do "aikido".... but for others they can practice what they want.

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#293482 - 11/01/06 01:30 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
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I think the point you make about the "duty of care" is a critical one. Sparring partners are supposed to work WITH each other, not against each other. This is especially critical where sparring partners have differing levels of skill. The more skilled partner's job is to challenge the less skilled one, not overwhelm them.

Another point is that a martial art's effectiveness can sometimes be enhanced by stripping away some it's more dangerous techniques. This is what Kano discovered with regards to Judo. By elimating some of jujutsu's more damaging techniques, his Judo students were able to spar with much greater intensity and under much more realistic conditions. This realstic training was worth far more than the handful of techniques that Kano discarded.

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#293483 - 11/06/06 08:03 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Leo_E_49]
Isatheprophet2000 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 32
hi

big problem with that, the tori has got his head down, it takes time to put the lock on, in the mean time uke has his hands free, punch him in the head while its down, no forget the head., go for the throat.

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#293484 - 11/29/06 11:21 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Isatheprophet2000]
belvedere Offline
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Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
Just as an aside - what is Aikido all about? Is it it a martial art? Is it a fighting art? What did Osensei say about it?

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#293485 - 07/08/08 12:12 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: TaekwondoWned]
AikiGhost Offline
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Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

I'm sorry to break the news to all aikidoka but aikido is one of the lowest ranking martial arts in terms of effectiveness.




Well as an ex aikidoka (7 years traditional style) Id agree its not as effective as styles that spar regularly. I got into MMA about 4 years ago and never looked back.

Its extremely hard to make aikido techniques (especially wrist locks, kote gaeishi etc) work in real sparring.
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#293486 - 07/08/08 10:00 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: AikiGhost]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks for reviving a dead thread from 2 years ago...

I would agree they are extremely hard to apply in a sparring scenario... especially IF you are trying to apply "technique" rather than principle...

So what makes wrist locks in aikido different to those found in jujitsu/BJJ or even chin-na? Would you place any stock in omoplata (ikkyo principle) or mão de vaca (gokyo principle) in MMA sparring?

Just curious...

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#293487 - 07/08/08 10:51 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: eyrie]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Thanks for reviving a dead thread from 2 years ago...





Thats because he's an aikiGHOST!

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#293488 - 07/09/08 10:16 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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You know, I have found that aikido-style footwork to be very effective in sparring situations. The turns and spins work well for me. Kind of similar to boxing footwork, but taking into account grabbing and clinching.
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#293489 - 07/09/08 05:51 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: MattJ]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Good call Matt. I've found the same thing. The footwork in Aikido has saved me numerous times.

I also will echo eyrie's comment that if you are trying to apply technique rather than principle you're not really trying to apply 'Aikido' at all. However, that being said, I have applied variations of techniques (mostly ikkyo and irimi nage) in live grappling situations--but I wasn't 'trying' to do Aikido, the oppurtunity just presented itself and I took it.

--Chris
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#293490 - 07/09/08 08:49 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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2 years later and guess what? My opinion hasn't changed ANY. Wow!

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#293491 - 03/03/09 08:04 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: JKogas]
KungFu2U Offline
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3
Aikido fails of the basic burden of proof, i.e. they don't substantiate their claims, that it's as effective in self-defense as MMA; and therefore the claim must be taken as false.

Likewise, the problem with the "well it's not meant for use against MMA," also fails because either this means that it's simply better to train in MMA, or that Aikido is better on the street but not in competitive testing (in which case then they haven't substantiated that claim either).

So basically their argument can't be accepted, because they haven't met their burden of proof (and anecdotes are not proof).

As for Aikido technique, it can usually be very much simplified under technical fighting, while the Aikido-mysticism about "harmony" and "energy" is simply more confusing than constructive, compared to terms like "momentum" and "relative motion." I can usually teach someone more in 10 minutes of technical fighting, than 10 years of traditional methods.

However if you want to start a cult, to cash in on gullible students who spend a lot of money because they saw Seagal-movies-- rather than condemning them/him as the anathema that they are, to your purported philosophy of "non-violence--" then Aikido is great for psyching out suckers who'll believe anything, and don't mind dogmatic hypocrisy as well as psychadelic brainwashing... or playing Russian Roulette with their lives in self-defense situations


Edited by KungFu2U (03/03/09 08:21 PM)

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#293492 - 03/04/09 11:00 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: KungFu2U]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

So basically their argument can't be accepted, because they haven't met their burden of proof (and anecdotes are not proof).





Your argument(s) can't accepted, not "theirs". It's you who have answered 'for Aikido'.

Quote:

Likewise, the problem with the "well it's not meant for use against MMA," also fails because either this means that it's simply better to train in MMA, or that Aikido is better on the street but not in competitive testing (in which case then they haven't substantiated that claim either).





Neither of these claims is accurate.

Quote:

As for Aikido technique, it can usually be very much simplified under technical fighting, while the Aikido-mysticism about "harmony" and "energy" is simply more confusing than constructive, compared to terms like "momentum" and "relative motion."




Terms like "momentum" and "relative motion" also have to be defined for many. Further, the terms would really only help you with roughly 10% of any Aikido technique. There is more going on than momentum or relative motion, and your attempt at labeling the techniques as this would only block progress towards figuring out what else is going on.

Quote:

I can usually teach someone more in 10 minutes of technical fighting, than 10 years of traditional methods.





"More" as in what? More as in how to use momentum? Great, now what about all the other stuff going on?

Before you ask me "what stuff"? Please understand that I am PURPOSELY not stating it, because I want YOU to tell me, after all you can teach me more about Aikido in 10 minutes than my Sensei could in 10 years right? So how about you enlighten me as to what else is happening in the techniques, as well as providing clear descriptions of how it works?

Quote:

However if you want to start a cult, to cash in on gullible students who spend a lot of money because they saw Seagal-movies-- rather than condemning them/him as the anathema that they are, to your purported philosophy of "non-violence--" then Aikido is great for psyching out suckers who'll believe anything, and don't mind dogmatic hypocrisy as well as psychadelic brainwashing... or playing Russian Roulette with their lives in self-defense situations




Thanks for the info, troll. Now tell me, in what way is Aikido a "cult". And what the hell do you mean by "psychadelic brainwashing". I suggest you sign up for an 'Introduction to Critical Thinking' class at your local community college, before you post your drivel on here.

Do enlighten me as to what is happening in Aikido techniques, as well as describing the physical process in scientific terms though.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#293493 - 03/04/09 11:20 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Ames]
KungFu2U Offline
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3
This proves my point about the irrational nature of Aikido mindset, similar to saying that pro wrestling is fake: methinks thou doth protest too much to believe the protesting.

Quote:

Thanks for the info, troll.



Actually trolls are the ones who can't handle intelligent dissenters.


Edited by KungFu2U (03/04/09 11:38 PM)

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#293494 - 03/05/09 07:59 AM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: KungFu2U]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Bingo!

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#293495 - 03/05/09 12:11 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: KungFu2U]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Actually trolls are the ones who can't handle intelligent dissenters.




Actually, I think I handled you just fine. Obviously you have no idea of what Aikido even is, despite saying you could teach someone it in "10 minutes." Am I wrong? Great. Tell me the principles at work in an Aikido technique, and the physics involved.

Also, your comment that Aikido students are the product of "psychodelic brainwashing" is so far from any thing like "intelligent dissent", its truly not even funny.

One more chance to clarify the argogant ignorance of your first post, or you will be banned. It's up to you smart guy.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#293496 - 03/05/09 02:06 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: Ames]
KungFu2U Offline
Banned Troll

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3
Warned you, now you're banned.

Go find another forum to display your stupidity.

-Chris


Edited by Ames (03/05/09 02:39 PM)

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#293497 - 03/05/09 03:19 PM Re: Aikido in MMA [Re: KungFu2U]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
With that out of the way, I'm goint to what I probably should have done awhile ago and lock this thread, as I don't see it going any further.

As always, if you have something you really, really want to add, p.m. and we can discuss it being opened again.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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