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#293121 - 10/17/06 04:59 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Depends on the sparring. And you tell me which sparring will allow a neck crank to break a vertebrae or any disallowed/dangerous technique? How does anyone practice this in sparring?




From my observations the following;
None but
self defence techniques etc are trained first in kata. Light partner work. Then as none contact very very light drills.
Quote:


So in essence, regardless of style or type of system, one may acknowledge these "terrible" techniques, but NO ONE is going to pull them out of his pocket in a sparring session.




Agreed but a knowledge of disallowed/dangerous techniques is one thing being able to use them is perhaps thought to be another. None contact very light contact drills along with kata practice bag work dummy work etc might keep the techniques in the persons mind.

To me competition sparring done correctly might be considered for the same reason why Judo initially evolved and techniques were changed .

Example
Safe randori. Throw then into kesa gatame (or such) then arm lock and or just hold down etc no neck crank. (Judo sport) Ju jitsu. Throw kesa gatame might be then an arm lock or neck krank etc.

Ju jitsu/karate nasty stuff. A person might have used strikes then a Throw while the opponent is in a neck krank.( Not to sure if there would have then been much of a need for a hold down or arm bar? )

Either way swiftly moving on
.It has been said that a lot of trad ju jitsu was taught from kata. Fine but an element of sparring/ live randori was needed.(judo removal of disallowed/dangerous techniques ) Ok some Ju jitsu schools must have done live sparring in some form as well thus the visit to the kodokan of the ground work specialists.
.
Quote:


If you are aware of the technique and can get to a reasonable point to actually performing that technique, you are there if you know it.





Exactly and to keep the awareness after the technique is learned is the practice of kata etc. Use it or lose it? The additional technique(the nasty ones should a person wish to be able to use them)could be said to need reinforced in a persons mind. So Kata/ partner drills bag work dummy work etc .
Quote:


However, if you fundamentally think of sparring as an exercise in light contact with a strategic emphasis in tapping someone on the chest and getting out, you are not considering how many others see sparring--or practice it.





That type of sparring does exist and I feel it gives to the onlooker a misleading image of karate. Pulling a technique or none contact in karate might have a place with the nasty techniques..
Quote:


When sparring where I study (of course you are not doing the "decapitation" move ), but you are there to take down the opponent...knock him down or force him through contact to turn away from you ---from either hard strikes or knocking the wind out of him so that he can not continue his attack. You do not stop if you make contact.




My kind of sparring! Nice sparring.This to me is more like it and it has its uses.But it isnít practicing some techniques as they should be practiced(self defence there fore techniques found in kata should a person want to be able to use them) because the practice of self defence techniques in sparring might be considered unfeesable, the next best thing might be this type of sparring and kata practice /application bag work conditioning drills and sparring none contact or light contact etc etc.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (10/17/06 08:00 AM)

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#293122 - 10/17/06 07:59 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I disagree. a SD strike is not a sparring strike. show me an uppercut or hitting with your forearm in point-sparring. or a reverse punch in self defense. well, ok a reverse punch could have good effect but the fundamental strategies are different and therfore their execution.




I am going to have to disagree with Ed here, on this. The fundamental mechanics are not that different from sparring to self-defense.

And I will hunt through my old sparring photos and videos. We did use forearm strikes (a la AKK's Thundering Hammer - see second photo http://www.nackordkarate.com/TechAny.asp?nObjectID=506 ) to the body, as well as uppercuts.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#293123 - 10/17/06 02:34 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think Mattj right only the choice of strikes, intent, targeting, tenacity and continous motion is different and of course no holding your hands up as the winner, you haul a$$.

Of course Mattj some tourneys don't call forearm strikes a points nor shuto or hammer fist.

On to another subject just because a techiques doesn't look like a text book don't make it the same in my mind. If I need to go around or over his guard the path changes. I still call it a over hand reverse punch or crossing rp, upward palm strike or whatever I mean the victory gets to tell HIStroy. As long as it works. I'm probably going to loose some more stripes off my Traditional Karate patch for that stmt, such is life. Some think classic or Trad means text book, it means effective to me.

Back to reverse engineering...


Edited by Neko456 (10/17/06 02:42 PM)
_________________________
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#293124 - 10/18/06 03:25 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I donít think my last posting made much sense. What I was trying to say was I believe kata is for self defence.
The dangerous moves such as groin strikes, strikes with the forearm to the throat, throws while the opponent is in a head lock cant obviously be used in free sparring. So they are trained with firstly kata then partner drills using the techniques as well as conditioning bagwork etc etc then light no contact sparring.

The competition part(none dangerous techniques) is where the training under pressure should come in .


Edited by ANDY44 (10/18/06 03:31 PM)

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#293125 - 10/18/06 03:30 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

I disagree. a SD strike is not a sparring strike. show me an uppercut or hitting with your forearm in point-sparring. or a reverse punch in self defense. well, ok a reverse punch could have good effect but the fundamental strategies are different and therfore their execution.




I am going to have to disagree with Ed here, on this. The fundamental mechanics are not that different from sparring to self-defense.

And I will hunt through my old sparring photos and videos. We did use forearm strikes (a la AKK's Thundering Hammer - see second photo http://www.nackordkarate.com/TechAny.asp?nObjectID=506 ) to the body, as well as uppercuts.




Did you find the vidios Matt? Would be good to see them.

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#293126 - 10/18/06 04:08 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
consider this for a while...just think about it and try it out with a partner before replying:

don't tell your opponent what you are going to do, but tell him you will only throw one strike and he is to react deflect/block/move out of the way/whatever - tell him not to get hit...

throw a straight reverse punch out to your opponent's face height at the normal sparring range you'd normally do. note his reaction.

now get close enough to reach him with your elbow. throw a straight reverse punch out, but don't aim your fist for his face...aim to hit the side of his neck with your punching forearm. to the outside. (meaning if you reverse punch with the right, aim for his right side of neck).

the first one (sparring range), he won't get hit.
the second one...be careful not to hurt him if he doesn't react in time.


the 2 reverse punches look the same, but they are different techniques just by changing the range....which one are you doing when you do a reverse punch in kata? depends what your assumption in range is.

thats what I meant when I said the techniques are different.

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#293127 - 10/19/06 05:05 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nicely put Ed,

The range 'issue' is one of the biggest differences between sport and self defence based karate - my general observation when teaching other karateka is for them to get 'a whole load' closer.

In our tegumi sessions people seem to like having a barrier, about 6-12 inches I have noticed, it makes the wrestling more like push hands (great for sensitivity training of course), again for effective 'waza' we need to break guard and enter - kuzushi, to off balance.

The reality is if someone is within your/their tactile zone (hold your arms up and draw a circle to get an idea of range, I add a little bit to this),

and you have your hands by your side you will get hit if they want to hit you (granted a small percentage of 'quick' people can survive assault by a small percenage of 'slow' people).

So how does kata adress this issue?

Well for me it is simple, at the front end off kata we generally have salutations, im happy to accept re-engineering of the standard hands come up (palms up) and hands go down (palms down) as 2 basic 'fences',

giving me a high and low fence which should be operating if somone enters my tactile zone - my hands should be in front on my body one hand slightly forward form the other, either high or low, shizentai, natural,

a whole load of body language, verbal stuff and pushing can be worked from here - you can slip into a wedge and clinch easy, pre-emptive strike, use front hand/backhand moion to recieve a strike, simply step back/off line with hands up, kick fast under the hands etc etc.

Geoff Thompson made the fence famous in UK, I think about 15 years ago but very few people work it in Bunkai proper (although a few do due to Iain Abernathy/Geoff Thompson leading realistic training practises),

some more serious studies of the concept have taken place, I tend to use what I have as it does its job, and im a simple creature.

Gav knows alot more about this stuff than me.

Sorry that was a bit of a ramble.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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