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#293101 - 10/12/06 04:09 PM "Reverse Engineering"
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Anyone up to discussing this? Definition of, as applied to karate, history of, problems with, etc?

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#293102 - 10/12/06 04:23 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Yep, first was all the grappling inherent within kata and karate in general. And next, of course, were the AK-47 disarms....

If you look at the stars long enough, you can draw lines to make anything you want out of them.

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#293103 - 10/12/06 04:29 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA

harlan

I like the idea of "back-engeineering" things.

Of course the problem is that its very hard to figure out exactly what a given person used a given movement for.

Of comes down to "could have been used for X"
and that is as close as we get.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#293104 - 10/12/06 05:03 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768

reverse engineering (as far as kata analysis) hinges on the assumption that the kata taught to us is in more or less the form they were handed down as. The other assumption is that kata was for a specific purpose.

based on those two assumptions, people make their own 'interpretation'...the process they must go thru is 'reverse engineering'.

ie: starting with the form...they arrive at it's interpretation by trying to satisfy it's assumed purpose.


opponents to 'reverse engineering' say derriving meaning from kata is less literal and more flowing. kata teaching as a way to move vs. the literal 'if they do this, I'll do that' responses.

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#293105 - 10/12/06 05:19 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
But Ed, even if kata was supposed to be a biometric aid to movement, wouldn't this have been a purpose unto itself?

And, even if there were changes and alterations to kata, then those changes were done for a purpose, even if done in ignorance. So you are left with the same central theme: Kata is a tool for education. The question isn't that kata was used or had a purpose, but whether kata serves the purposes that people propose it does. Or are some just delusional while others have insight where none but a few can peak into the cracks?

Whatever you imbue kata with, I just question it's necessity now since no one seems to be able to prove its efficacy against other forms of training. I don't even argue that it has some kind of validity and may have been a good way of handing something down for subsequent generations when there were no other options for permanent records. Similarly, you have peoples with no writing singing names and stories to keep their cultures alive...and passing this down. But, unlike verbal cultural relics, we have kata in the here and now and some imbue it with almost magical qualities that I have yet to witness or have proven to me are any better than modern training exercises.

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#293106 - 10/12/06 08:25 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
What's the difference between pulling apart a small section of the kata and training combos like you do in Ashihara, (or Shorinji Kempo)?

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#293107 - 10/12/06 08:47 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: eyrie]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Eyrie,

I have no problem with dissection of movements and the like. I find it curious to look at an answer, and trying to find the exact equation to fit it, since the answer is already given.

But, as for Ashihara, it doesn't have "standard" kata. They were all devised by Ashihara himself. He made no bones about his dislike of traditioinal kata. He has even written that the practice of traditional kata will not help you with respect to usefulness in a fight. BTW, I wasn't aware of this or cared about it until I read it in one of his books he published on his style. So, I had no connection to liking or disliking classical kata, even then.

In any case, there are kata within Ashihara that I don't like at all...and I don't practice or teach these, though I can do a couple of them if called upon. I just happen to think my time is better spent elsewhere. However, each kata is supposed to be used with a partner, much like judo partner drills and that's their benefit I suppose.

The two people that I really respected within Ashihara, one of whom is no longer in this style, did not really practice kata either. I find it...unecessary. And as kata goes, for instance, one section of ours would be done in a slight boxer's crouch and would have a left jab, right straight, slight lateral movement and a left upper. Hardly anything that would require deciphering or changing to fit a response to a particular attack. It is what it is and that's it. In essence, straight forward shadow boxing.

-B

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#293108 - 10/12/06 08:59 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Reverse engineering is not a process relegated to understanding Kata. You see it applied in a variety of arts and sciences. Researching medieval Trebuches, determing the pigments ground by Divinci or Rembrandt or how the pyramids built. Now I'm not planning to build a pyramid anytime soon but some study may effect how I go about a room addition or a deck. The information gain may be, or at leat seem usless.

As an art student I often got permission to copy paintings by different masters in the collection of the Museum of the Art Instiute in Chicago. Not that anyone would see it but the time that I spent under those master can be seen in everyone of my cartoons. Contraposto.

Study and the pursuit of understanding may be both pragmatic and pleasureable. I could judge my success by the sale of my painting,or the quality of my work as judged by others. I could base their value on the numbers of competitions I have won or what museum collections I am included in.

I'll leave it up tp others to decide. Whatever I do I want to enjoy the learning and growing.

I am a fan of obtuse quotes. If I may paraphrase Sakuo Sakumoto, "Kata is a room with four corners. A teacher will give you three. You have to find the other yourself".

So I look at Itosu's schoolboy Kata. I can't say I chose to study them. I showed up somewhere and there they were. Maligned by Pure okinawan practioners, considered useless by practioners using more progessive methods. I ponder, and practice the Pinans and in his creation I meet the man. I get a chance to go inside his mind and thoughts. He created something for ...well...dare I say it?...Me.

Just as very few would see Carrivagio in my cartoons even fewer would see Itosu in the way I carry myself. If the day should come by some intersection of time, stupidity and chance, I may be forced to defend myself. Based on many factors and fate I may or may not get my as$ beat. One thing for sure though, the poor [censored] will not see Itosu coming.

I'm not a student of language, especially japanese. I remember reading at one time the definition of the words in their original language. As I don't read Japanese I will share their definition. Kata means..."how one behaves".

Whatever that means.

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#293109 - 10/12/06 09:15 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, I think we're talking about solo kata rather than paired. BTW, even within arts like judo, jujitsu and aikido, it can be argued that what they do is "kata", albeit in paired format.

I think we're talking about deconstructing (reverse-engineering) specific sequences in kata (form) in terms of valid combat applications.

Whilst I agree that it is curious to look at the answer and try to find an equation to fit it, but people do it. It is merely human nature to do so.

All I'm saying is that kata is a sequence of movement "shapes". These "shapes" can and should change as required., within the context of paired work. OTOH, it can also be argued that such sequences are a valid and natural consequence of each other and flow from one shape to the next.

For example, if we know that hitting a certain spot causes the person to lurch forward slightly and create a opening somewhere, then it would be logical to assume that the next movement in the sequence is a follow thru to exploit the opening which has presented itself.

So whether you practice the entire kata following the lines of embusen, or whether you practice a small section on its own, shouldn't be any different. It's just a different sequence of movement, which may or may not be related to the preceeding sequence.

I don't think anyone is saying that the entire kata is to be used to deconstruct the meaning.

But I could be wrong....

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#293110 - 10/12/06 09:27 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


If you look at the stars long enough, you can draw lines to make anything you want out of them.




Isn't THAT the damned truth!



-John

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#293111 - 10/12/06 09:28 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
"how one behaves" - I think is accurate. I believe kata contains principles to illustrate good reflexive responses to various angles of various attack. but kata study only illustrates this as theory....the other half to kata study is actual 2-person training.

I also agree with oldman's 'artistic appreciation' view of kata, as it relates to the process of disecting and discovering underlaying principles.

maybe it's creating what wasn't there by forced-fitted justification....or maybe some are on to something.

at the very least, if kata interpretation bothers people, then they can think of it as like when linguists decypher hiroglyphics from an undocumented language....very few really care their process of translating it -the rest just want to know what it says.

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#293112 - 10/12/06 09:31 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mark,

This is a good post and a well thought out one, but I would rather use the term deconstruction here. And some might quibble at semantics, but I think it is necessary. Your exploration is a legitimate travel through this kata, because it is personal and affects your appreciation of your art. You are going backward, sight seeing so to speak, without the earnest want of trying to fit an exact reason to a particular solution.

The aspect of reverse engineering that I am coloring here is one of intent. In our modern age, reverse engineering is often done by competing manufacturers who are looking to produce a similar product to one already available in the market.

A solution is already at hand, how one comes to it, is the question. This is not evolution of a concept to answer a problem, to me it is rationalization of what is give to answer questions of why such a solution exists. Does the process of doing something one way or the other encompass this solution? Might be a trick of the light, but it might just mean that there could be several interpretations for what has gone before...all equally valid (or not).

People seem to want to invest so much in finding the fountain of knowledge in the "original" kata so that by peeking at it, they can gain so much more than they already have. Who knows why this was done a certain way, you can guess, doesn't make it right...or wrong. We just won't know without evidence.

It might even be a pleasant intellectual puzzle to find something here or there, but then the contention that figuring out the "original" reason somehow will gain you that much more, is neither here nor there. It will still just be a guess, and you would be in the same boat with that knowledge.

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#293113 - 10/12/06 10:45 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I agree with you to a point. I mentioned in one of my posts somewhere that kata study starts with assumptions (and the assumptions could be different per instructor).

don't like the assumptions? don't train kata.

the part I disargee with you on is that deconstruction only reveils a set response in a particular situation.

thats equivalent to me saying the same for what you were showing me when I visited there. the opponent stepped in and punched - you taught a set response.

it would be unfair for me to assume that since you teach that, it must be the ONLY variation your system of learning has given that particular attack. it's a short-sighted/uninformed view...just as many views are of kata criticsm.

actually, Brad, the drills/principles you demonstrated have only a different strategy...they could have just as easily come from kata. we train kata more or less the same way you were teaching your drills. whether you keep all that in your head, or have it packaged in a recallable form...whats the difference?

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#293114 - 10/12/06 11:22 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: oldman]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

Reverse engineering is not a process relegated to understanding Kata. You see it applied in a variety of arts and sciences. Researching medieval Trebuches, determing the pigments ground by Divinci or Rembrandt or how the pyramids built. Now I'm not planning to build a pyramid anytime soon but some study may effect how I go about a room addition or a deck. The information gain may be, or at leat seem usless.

As an art student I often got permission to copy paintings by different masters in the collection of the Museum of the Art Instiute in Chicago. Not that anyone would see it but the time that I spent under those master can be seen in everyone of my cartoons. Contraposto.

Study and the pursuit of understanding may be both pragmatic and pleasureable. I could judge my success by the sale of my painting,or the quality of my work as judged by others. I could base their value on the numbers of competitions I have won or what museum collections I am included in.

I'll leave it up tp others to decide. Whatever I do I want to enjoy the learning and growing.

I am a fan of obtuse quotes. If I may paraphrase Sakuo Sakumoto, "Kata is a room with four corners. A teacher will give you three. You have to find the other yourself".

So I look at Itosu's schoolboy Kata. I can't say I chose to study them. I showed up somewhere and there they were. Maligned by Pure okinawan practioners, considered useless by practioners using more progessive methods. I ponder, and practice the Pinans and in his creation I meet the man. I get a chance to go inside his mind and thoughts. He created something for ...well...dare I say it?...Me.

Just as very few would see Carrivagio in my cartoons even fewer would see Itosu in the way I carry myself. If the day should come by some intersection of time, stupidity and chance, I may be forced to defend myself. Based on many factors and fate I may or may not get my as$ beat. One thing for sure though, the poor [censored] will not see Itosu coming.

I'm not a student of language, especially japanese. I remember reading at one time the definition of the words in their original language. As I don't read Japanese I will share their definition. Kata means..."how one behaves".

Whatever that means.




Completely agree here. This is how I have always tried to convey kata to my students and in my own studies
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#293115 - 10/16/06 12:05 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

actually, Brad, the drills/principles you demonstrated have only a different strategy...they could have just as easily come from kata. we train kata more or less the same way you were teaching your drills. whether you keep all that in your head, or have it packaged in a recallable form...whats the difference?




Ed,

I guess it's partially a question of inefficiency for me. First, I see no problem with kata as a cultural or stylistic representation. Both Mark and Jim acknowledge this as at least one of their reasons for its study. My concern has always been with its consideration as a useful tool for "fighting."

I guess the example I would use would devolve into a thought experiment with two individuals: each being equal, and only differing in their study. One would do pad/bag work and kata. The other pad/bag work and practicing with a partner. I will wager good money on one of these guys, and it wouldn't be the one doing kata.

Now, I know, the caveat coming from the Kata Crew would be one where kata would be qualified as a tool to be used along side other training methods to extract its useful points. My problem with this is the following: even though kata people acknowledge the abilities of those trained fighters and martial artists who do not apply themselves to kata training(i.e. grapplers, judoka, MT, BJJers, etc.), they still have an insistance that kata is something that can add to the fighter. However, it never seems to prove a problem by its lack. Therefore, its addition to training becomes suspect when looking at technical utitilty.

My take is that those who train kata and are good fighters would be good, even without the training. Within a traditional sparring match, I have yet to see a recommendation to the loser, whose round kick might have been pretty bad when he attempted to hit his opponent, to do extra kata for his preparation for his next match.

-B

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#293116 - 10/16/06 07:13 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Brad, your process of coming up with sound responses and discarding ones that don't seem as sound...what do you call that process?

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#293117 - 10/16/06 08:36 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:


I guess the example I would use would devolve into a thought experiment with two individuals: each being equal, and only differing in their study. One would do pad/bag work and kata. The other pad/bag work and practicing with a partner. I will wager good money on one of these guys, and it wouldn't be the one doing kata.





Hi Butterfly.My thoughts.
Firstly my re study of kata is limited so most of these are observations.I think there is a vast difference between kata(self defence) and karate competiton fighting. Two different animals where techniques might cross at sometime.

Ok if I could base this on my observations of the head guy at the Jundokan(Goju) and I wanted to train to try to get to his level. Firstly he is doing an impressive two man drill on vidio using techniques taken from kata. That is one drill. There must be many of these drills. I think a person would have a great deal of difficulty remembering all of the techniques with out kata practice to put into any kind of kata based partner drill of that kind. .The only means of learning the techniques for the drills would be daily solo kata practice then at some other times bagwork conditioning partner work basics other drills etc. Then eventualy the whole thing could be used in self defence /combat etc.
I doubt if anybody could replicate what he is doing on vidio with out daily kata practice
and even some would have a hard time if they did practice Kata.

Quote:


and martial artists who do not apply themselves to kata training(i.e. grapplers, judoka, MT, BJJers, etc.), they still have an insistance that kata is something that can add to the fighter. However, it never seems to prove a problem by its lack. Therefore, its addition to training becomes suspect when looking at technical utitilty.




From my observations of Judo kata to me makes a lot of sense, BJJ ers do have a form of shadow fighting and they do Practice it.
Quote:


My take is that those who train kata and are good fighters would be good, even without the training. Within a traditional sparring match, I have yet to see a recommendation to the loser, whose round kick might have been pretty bad when he attempted to hit his opponent, to do extra kata for his preparation for his next match.




Kata is as far as I can see meant to be for self defence.I see only a limited amount of kicks in trad karate kata.I think you are refering to competition sparring which would mean isolating the kick and training it.
To me Kata and competition sparring are two different animals. That is why top competiton fighters run seminars that train only for competiton fighting.

Thanks ANDY


Edited by ANDY44 (10/16/06 08:40 AM)

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#293118 - 10/16/06 12:57 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: ANDY44]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Andy,

For me I agree that much of point sparring and traditional "tag" sparring does not reflect well on "real" use.

But the question I would have for you, is that outside of sparring or bag and pad work, how do you punch or kick or grab differently if you wanted to defend yourself?

My consideration is that you don't. You will punch exactly how you would (all be it with more emphasis) when sparring with a partner. You don't suddenly change the mechanics of what you are doing to affect a different outcome. The only difference I see is one of intent and perhaps a larger arsenal to choose from when in a defensive situation. However, there is no change in the "platform" from where you will be launching these techniques.

This also brings up additional questions in my mind of why not include these principles in sparring rather than isolate them in some overly rigid and formalized movement that has no one-to-one comparison to its application? It's an extra step that you don't need.

-B

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#293119 - 10/16/06 10:21 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I disagree. a SD strike is not a sparring strike. show me an uppercut or hitting with your forearm in point-sparring. or a reverse punch in self defense. well, ok a reverse punch could have good effect but the fundamental strategies are different and therfore their execution.


SD: receiving parry while decapitating the guy by striking hard on his neck with your forearm. mawashi-style.

sparring: hop out of the way, boink in for a long-range chambered tap to the ribs, and spring back to safety. (lol...ok I exaggurate)

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#293120 - 10/17/06 01:52 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ed,

Depends on the sparring. And you tell me which sparring will allow a neck crank to break a vertabrae or any disallowed/dangerous technique? How does anyone practice this in sparring? So in essence, regardless of style or type of system, one may acknowledge these "terrible" techniques, but NO ONE is going to pull them out of his pocket in a sparring session.

If you are aware of the technique and can get to a reasonable point to actually performing that technique, you are there if you know it. However, if you fundamentally think of sparring as an exercise in light contact with a strategic emphasis in tapping someone on the chest and getting out, you are not considering how many others see sparring--or practice it.

When sparring where I study (of course you are not doing the "decapitation" move ), but you are there to take down the opponent...knock him down or force him through contact to turn away from you ---from either hard strikes or knocking the wind out of him so that he can not continue his attack. You do not stop if you make contact.

For the MMA stylist, I see it as a one-step up, not necessarily in intensity, but in use of technique to accomodate the ground game. This is where it does not stop until submission. I have even done this a few times. The overtures to sparring with less contact or less realism will make one consider a lot of possibilities that are just not there when being punched in the face or shot in upon.

BTW, there are always rules to sparring...I'll be frank about that. But not all sparring is the same, nor is the intent of all sparring the same.

-B

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#293121 - 10/17/06 04:59 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Depends on the sparring. And you tell me which sparring will allow a neck crank to break a vertebrae or any disallowed/dangerous technique? How does anyone practice this in sparring?




From my observations the following;
None but
self defence techniques etc are trained first in kata. Light partner work. Then as none contact very very light drills.
Quote:


So in essence, regardless of style or type of system, one may acknowledge these "terrible" techniques, but NO ONE is going to pull them out of his pocket in a sparring session.




Agreed but a knowledge of disallowed/dangerous techniques is one thing being able to use them is perhaps thought to be another. None contact very light contact drills along with kata practice bag work dummy work etc might keep the techniques in the persons mind.

To me competition sparring done correctly might be considered for the same reason why Judo initially evolved and techniques were changed .

Example
Safe randori. Throw then into kesa gatame (or such) then arm lock and or just hold down etc no neck crank. (Judo sport) Ju jitsu. Throw kesa gatame might be then an arm lock or neck krank etc.

Ju jitsu/karate nasty stuff. A person might have used strikes then a Throw while the opponent is in a neck krank.( Not to sure if there would have then been much of a need for a hold down or arm bar? )

Either way swiftly moving on
.It has been said that a lot of trad ju jitsu was taught from kata. Fine but an element of sparring/ live randori was needed.(judo removal of disallowed/dangerous techniques ) Ok some Ju jitsu schools must have done live sparring in some form as well thus the visit to the kodokan of the ground work specialists.
.
Quote:


If you are aware of the technique and can get to a reasonable point to actually performing that technique, you are there if you know it.





Exactly and to keep the awareness after the technique is learned is the practice of kata etc. Use it or lose it? The additional technique(the nasty ones should a person wish to be able to use them)could be said to need reinforced in a persons mind. So Kata/ partner drills bag work dummy work etc .
Quote:


However, if you fundamentally think of sparring as an exercise in light contact with a strategic emphasis in tapping someone on the chest and getting out, you are not considering how many others see sparring--or practice it.





That type of sparring does exist and I feel it gives to the onlooker a misleading image of karate. Pulling a technique or none contact in karate might have a place with the nasty techniques..
Quote:


When sparring where I study (of course you are not doing the "decapitation" move ), but you are there to take down the opponent...knock him down or force him through contact to turn away from you ---from either hard strikes or knocking the wind out of him so that he can not continue his attack. You do not stop if you make contact.




My kind of sparring! Nice sparring.This to me is more like it and it has its uses.But it isnít practicing some techniques as they should be practiced(self defence there fore techniques found in kata should a person want to be able to use them) because the practice of self defence techniques in sparring might be considered unfeesable, the next best thing might be this type of sparring and kata practice /application bag work conditioning drills and sparring none contact or light contact etc etc.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (10/17/06 08:00 AM)

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#293122 - 10/17/06 07:59 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I disagree. a SD strike is not a sparring strike. show me an uppercut or hitting with your forearm in point-sparring. or a reverse punch in self defense. well, ok a reverse punch could have good effect but the fundamental strategies are different and therfore their execution.




I am going to have to disagree with Ed here, on this. The fundamental mechanics are not that different from sparring to self-defense.

And I will hunt through my old sparring photos and videos. We did use forearm strikes (a la AKK's Thundering Hammer - see second photo http://www.nackordkarate.com/TechAny.asp?nObjectID=506 ) to the body, as well as uppercuts.
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#293123 - 10/17/06 02:34 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think Mattj right only the choice of strikes, intent, targeting, tenacity and continous motion is different and of course no holding your hands up as the winner, you haul a$$.

Of course Mattj some tourneys don't call forearm strikes a points nor shuto or hammer fist.

On to another subject just because a techiques doesn't look like a text book don't make it the same in my mind. If I need to go around or over his guard the path changes. I still call it a over hand reverse punch or crossing rp, upward palm strike or whatever I mean the victory gets to tell HIStroy. As long as it works. I'm probably going to loose some more stripes off my Traditional Karate patch for that stmt, such is life. Some think classic or Trad means text book, it means effective to me.

Back to reverse engineering...


Edited by Neko456 (10/17/06 02:42 PM)
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#293124 - 10/18/06 03:25 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I donít think my last posting made much sense. What I was trying to say was I believe kata is for self defence.
The dangerous moves such as groin strikes, strikes with the forearm to the throat, throws while the opponent is in a head lock cant obviously be used in free sparring. So they are trained with firstly kata then partner drills using the techniques as well as conditioning bagwork etc etc then light no contact sparring.

The competition part(none dangerous techniques) is where the training under pressure should come in .


Edited by ANDY44 (10/18/06 03:31 PM)

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#293125 - 10/18/06 03:30 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

I disagree. a SD strike is not a sparring strike. show me an uppercut or hitting with your forearm in point-sparring. or a reverse punch in self defense. well, ok a reverse punch could have good effect but the fundamental strategies are different and therfore their execution.




I am going to have to disagree with Ed here, on this. The fundamental mechanics are not that different from sparring to self-defense.

And I will hunt through my old sparring photos and videos. We did use forearm strikes (a la AKK's Thundering Hammer - see second photo http://www.nackordkarate.com/TechAny.asp?nObjectID=506 ) to the body, as well as uppercuts.




Did you find the vidios Matt? Would be good to see them.

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#293126 - 10/18/06 04:08 PM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
consider this for a while...just think about it and try it out with a partner before replying:

don't tell your opponent what you are going to do, but tell him you will only throw one strike and he is to react deflect/block/move out of the way/whatever - tell him not to get hit...

throw a straight reverse punch out to your opponent's face height at the normal sparring range you'd normally do. note his reaction.

now get close enough to reach him with your elbow. throw a straight reverse punch out, but don't aim your fist for his face...aim to hit the side of his neck with your punching forearm. to the outside. (meaning if you reverse punch with the right, aim for his right side of neck).

the first one (sparring range), he won't get hit.
the second one...be careful not to hurt him if he doesn't react in time.


the 2 reverse punches look the same, but they are different techniques just by changing the range....which one are you doing when you do a reverse punch in kata? depends what your assumption in range is.

thats what I meant when I said the techniques are different.

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#293127 - 10/19/06 05:05 AM Re: "Reverse Engineering" [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nicely put Ed,

The range 'issue' is one of the biggest differences between sport and self defence based karate - my general observation when teaching other karateka is for them to get 'a whole load' closer.

In our tegumi sessions people seem to like having a barrier, about 6-12 inches I have noticed, it makes the wrestling more like push hands (great for sensitivity training of course), again for effective 'waza' we need to break guard and enter - kuzushi, to off balance.

The reality is if someone is within your/their tactile zone (hold your arms up and draw a circle to get an idea of range, I add a little bit to this),

and you have your hands by your side you will get hit if they want to hit you (granted a small percentage of 'quick' people can survive assault by a small percenage of 'slow' people).

So how does kata adress this issue?

Well for me it is simple, at the front end off kata we generally have salutations, im happy to accept re-engineering of the standard hands come up (palms up) and hands go down (palms down) as 2 basic 'fences',

giving me a high and low fence which should be operating if somone enters my tactile zone - my hands should be in front on my body one hand slightly forward form the other, either high or low, shizentai, natural,

a whole load of body language, verbal stuff and pushing can be worked from here - you can slip into a wedge and clinch easy, pre-emptive strike, use front hand/backhand moion to recieve a strike, simply step back/off line with hands up, kick fast under the hands etc etc.

Geoff Thompson made the fence famous in UK, I think about 15 years ago but very few people work it in Bunkai proper (although a few do due to Iain Abernathy/Geoff Thompson leading realistic training practises),

some more serious studies of the concept have taken place, I tend to use what I have as it does its job, and im a simple creature.

Gav knows alot more about this stuff than me.

Sorry that was a bit of a ramble.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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