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#292560 - 10/11/06 04:37 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

The poor instruction is the biggest flaw.




Bigger than a person wanting to learn to fight?

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#292561 - 10/11/06 04:41 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I was hoping you would reply Brian. Sure your kata may have taught you those things but if you could learn them faster than you did, wouldnt you? I believe with Bagwork, sparring, and drilling you can do this. I wont go so far as to call kata useless. Thats not my purpose, instead, I will say that its an outdated approach. Nearly every aspect of Martial arts has changed over the past 30 years or so. The physical training, sparring and approach to self defense has changed greatly, especially with the induction of UFC and K1. The only thing that hasnt changed is kata and I believe its way past due.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292562 - 10/11/06 04:46 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I was hoping you would reply Brian. Sure your kata may have taught you those things but if you could learn them faster than you did, wouldnt you? I believe with Bagwork, sparring, and drilling you can do this. I wont go so far as to call kata useless. Thats not my purpose, instead, I will say that its an outdated approach. Nearly every aspect of Martial arts has changed over the past 30 years or so. The physical training, sparring and approach to self defense has changed greatly, especially with the induction of UFC and K1. The only thing that hasnt changed is kata and I believe its way past due.




So let me get this straight. You think kata training is outdated because of the ufc and k1?
The purpose of kata is not to go do a cage fight,lol,there's a big difference between squaring off to fight and self defense.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292563 - 10/11/06 04:49 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Sure your kata may have taught you those things but if you could learn them faster than you did, wouldnt you?




Absolutely not. If all I wanted was to compete then yes,but kata helps with retension as well as giving you a strong foundation for learning well into the oldman years.
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#292564 - 10/11/06 04:50 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Chen

Ok, but here you bring up a couple of false premises.

1-That UFC and K-1 have changed things.

See that arguement depends on OTHER PEOPLES fighting abilty.

In effect your saying, Tito Ortiz is a tough guy (which his is) "I" train just like Tito--so 'I" am a tough guy as well.

And that may not be the case at all.

In effect your pointing to SOMEBODYelses skills as "proof" of your own.

I maintain that martial arts are nearly utterly PERSONALLY dependent.

That the "founder" was stone killer or that you train "just like Chuck Liddell may be 100 percent correct--but that matters little unles those guys are WITH you when it goes down.

All that matters is what YOU personally can do.

2- The idea that SD or fighting has somehow chanegd.

A punch is a punch, a kick is kick and a lock is a lock---lots of varitaion on a theme--but "new?"

Not really.

The only thing that has "really" changed is the ready avaliablity of firearms---which has rendered almost ALL forms of un-armed SD obselete.

I also disagree with your shadowboxing and "free form" example---in shadowboxing you ARE free to throw whatever techniques you wish HOWEVER--a uppercut is still an uppercut and MUST be thrown "properly."

A kata, at base is just a long chain of various punchs, kicks and blocks linked togather for the purpose of practice.

A bit more formal in arrangement than shadowboxing--but not all that removed from it either.


Edited by cxt (10/11/06 04:54 PM)
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#292565 - 10/11/06 04:57 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Repetition is a huge part of any art. You gotta practice right? My thoughts are that kata arent neccessarily the fastest or best way to learn this.

You said "While SPARRING Ive developed the muscle memory..." Ah, but sparring is far from kata. And I believe that sparring is where the majority of the focus should be. And drilling. Drilling and shadow boxing to learn the proper mechanics then sparring to fine tune them and learning how to get them to work for you. Kata doesnt teach you to adjust your techniques to suit different angles of the opponents attack. You have one place to go in kata to be performed "correctly" but in all reality, there are multiple angles for all techniques that can be considered "correct"





what I meant was "While I am sparring, I still have the muscle memory from doing kata" My mistake.


As far as the focus of training being on sparring, I once thought that too, however I realized that if you spar without having worked on technique, you will get sloppy, and have sloppy technique.

"Drilling and shadow boxing to learn the proper mechanics then sparring to fine tune them and learning how to get them to work for you. Kata doesnt teach you to adjust your techniques to suit different angles of the opponents attack."

How is kata any different from shadow boxing? or doing a drill, I'm assuming, on a bag/pad?

Also, in my katas we change angles quite often, and do blocks/attacks from different angles all the time, its a very big part of the majority of my katas.




Yes if you spar without drilling, bag work or shadow boxing then your sparring will be sloppy. However, those tools are used. And used to replace Kata.

How is kata different from shadow boxing? Well, shadow boxing is freeform. The footwork is not fixed. The attacks and defensive movements are not fixed. As for drilling take the focus pads for a moment. Lets say you want to work on and isolate your jab. Now you can do this in kata. Or you can work on the pad. Jabbing for it as it moves at different speeds and angles. Learning how to adjust it as necessary to hit your target. At the end of the training who is going to have a better jab? The guy practicing against no resistance, aiming at the same imaginary target or the guy who has resistance in his training? The guy who works to land his jabs will essentially have a better jab. This carries over for all techniques.

As for changing angles in kata, you dont see it much. Why would you when you've been given one "correct" way to do the kata? Now the angle may change due to the footwork changing. However, thats not the same as the technique itself being adjusted.




If you do more jabs than me on a day to day bases, your jabs will improve faster than mine.

Kata isn't about isloating one technique, we have charts for that. Kata is about stringing a wide range of techniques together, enabling you to flow better, improving all of the techinques in the kata, by doing the kata.

If you do kata with some effort, putting power and speed into each movement, its just as good as hitting a focus mit.
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#292566 - 10/11/06 04:59 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The myth is that they are required training regiment for successful self defense. Sorry about not being clear about that.

Lots of replies at once. First, I dont think that katas are inferior because of UFC or K1. Im not so shallow. My view is based on my experience with forms and kata, and ascientific approach to fighting. I did forms for some years while studying Moo Duk Kwan TKD. To be honest with you, learning foriegn language and cultural history arent on my list of priorities and Ive quit that type of training so long ago that I couldnt tell you the names of the forms themselves. However, I practiced all of my forms, in order, daily for about two years. I could probably still perform them. Its the things Ive done after those two years, in the past 6 years or so, that have formed my opinions.

And Brian, why not get better faster?
If you train to be better at your art why not do it quickly? If the results are good performance then I dont see a disadvantage to this. Its not just about competition but self defense as well.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292567 - 10/11/06 05:03 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Spade]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Gotta disagree. Doing kata with power and speed is nothing like doing focus pads. Focus pads move, for one. Forcing you to perform while constantly adjusting. Just like you would be forced to adjust to your opponent.

And yes, If I do more jabs, Im better at it. Which is perfect for drilling. And drilling doesnt have to be just one technique. You can do drilling for combos, footwork, takedowns and grappling. Just for clarification. Also you can learn timing with progressive resistance sparring and good bagwork.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292568 - 10/11/06 05:07 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I disagree with alot of statements spade has made. I'm not sure what his level of experience is,but kata is not meant to replace hitting real objects.
Why not get better faster? Better at what? Fighting? Yes,but in the long run your self defense is better through the kata then without it. there are many techniques learned and retained better because of kata.
In my opinion kata has a bad rap given to it by instructors teaching sport versions of it. Everything is a friggin block to them.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292569 - 10/11/06 05:09 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
jkd guys have prefered combos, boxers have fav combos, tkd guys ave prefered combos, and all the way back, choki motobu had prefered combos. kata can be broken down into small sequences if yo want, and ever some small movements added to accomidate a spefic response or action.

all in all a kata is essentially the same a shodowboxing routine, except! its a constant, in a way a small fight that can be analyzed to disect out of it the dynamics of body motion as they relate to fighting.

you don't think kata is an effective training tool and i don't like my nana's pastery, who really cares?

more analagies!!! you got it!!!

you don't like the way tkd guys look at self defence, go train krave maga maby??

you don't like rice?? go to mcdonalds!!

and im sure brian and oldman will agree...
you don't like kata? get the hell out of a traditional dojo!!

i bet your happy training where you do, great, but theres a lot of us out here who beleive in kata, so were ready and willing to answer any questions concerning its pratice and purpose, so would someone finially ask one? instead of givimg me your training schedual??
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