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#292720 - 01/02/07 11:32 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
I am sorry, didn't mean to.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#292721 - 01/02/07 11:43 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Katana83]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
No need to apologize. There's nothing against posting on any threads. That's what this place is for. Feel free.


-John

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#292722 - 01/03/07 12:31 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
mark

Sorry to hear you had such a poor training experience, if all you got from kata's practice was "dance"--they certainly were not doing a very good job.

Sounds like you were able to find the training you were looking for at some point--congrats! (seriously : ) )
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#292723 - 01/03/07 03:33 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: cxt]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Cxt, how wonderfully patronising, great!!

I practiced Kata for 30 yrs, karate, TKD, Kung fu forms, Iadio, weapons kata.

I really ENJOYED learning and performing Kata, {I think I said that already}

But ALL kata is a pre arranged sequence of moves, just like a dance routine, that is simple fact.

As for Kata being able to develop a students physical, mental condition.. yes of course they do, just as a dance routine would.

May I quote Chens initial comment:

My first jab at it is that I dont think that kata are useful for anything other repetition of technique in which case there are far more valuable ways to do this

Only thing I would disagree with is, they are good for setting grading standard, and often very enjoyable, oh and a public display of Kata can get lots of trophies in the cabinet, very useful in showing what a “hardcase” someone is…..

mark

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#292724 - 01/03/07 12:26 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
mark

Did not really intend for it come across that way--sorry.

Kinda exactly why I put the term "seriously" and the "smily" in the post to try and avoid just that perception.

Nice of YOU to label all kata as a "dance" without takeing the time to distingush between your own personal opinions and experiences and EVREYONE ELSES.

I can assure you that experiences tend to vary considerably from person to person.

And labeling it such--on the heels of an 18 page discussion, might also be looked at with some degree irritation.

Again, did not mean to be patronizing, I owe you an "I'm sorry" for that perception.

Seriously.


Edited by cxt (01/03/07 12:27 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#292725 - 01/03/07 04:05 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

But ALL kata is a pre arranged sequence of moves, just like a dance routine, that is simple fact.



I disagree. but I DO agree that most people think and train that as fact. ...then again, most train with instructors who start teaching too early - they can only teach what they have learned. students only learn what they are taught.

someone who learns how to paint with a paint by numbers kit, might get bored of it after a while if they are never shown freehand painting.

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#292726 - 01/03/07 04:51 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
mark,

You studied kata for thirty years and all you got out of it was a prearranged dance??!!! You poor guy. I just can't imagine it!!

Ever come across stuff like this?

www.iainabernethy.com

Then maybe reconsider your kata training methods?

Guess what? The moves are not linked pre-arranged multiple attacker scenarios... HELLO!!

When I started goju I was shown real self defense techniques directly from the kata I was learning.Block kick punch is for the wee tikes.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292727 - 01/03/07 08:30 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Everybody has their own definition of kata. It is unfortunate that he only got a dance out of it, but hey, that is his interpretation and that is valid - for him. You and I have been able to get far more out of it. Perhaps because we didn't go into it with preconceived notions or heavy biases about what something is or isn't supposed to be. Perhaps we kept open minds and chose to grow within our training, and we eventually gained valuable benefits from it. There are a million definitions to what kata is or isn't. To that I say, "so what". The only people who truly know what they were intended for are their originial creators. Personally, I don't care what they are for because I am going to train them intensely and use them in a way that benefits me the most. Plus I really enjoy doing them .
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#292728 - 01/04/07 01:54 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Katana83]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Yawn!

Slight semantic variation I think.

Questions:-

1, Are Kata a pre-arranged sequence of moves?
2, Is a dance routine a pre-arranged sequence of moves?
3, Does Kata provide {on its own} a system for learning defence skills?
4, Does Kata practice, develop muscle memory for only Air basics?

Now, I agree with the value of KATA, I enjoy Kata,

Brain, Applied Kata, is in fact partner work, using techniques found in Kata, as practically ALL techniques are found in Kata, can it be said that any partner work is applied Kata?

Ed, or is it most instructors hide behind Kata practice because they aren’t able to develop a students any other way?
After all Kata is often karate by numbers.

Teaching Kata too early, well im sure you would have me believe that it takes decades to fully understand the mystic, value of each Kata, so doesn’t EVERY instructor teach them too early?

Cxt, as for the “degree irritation.” ROFL, is that because the argument for Kata as a defence skills training system is so flawed, it doesn’t stand close, or even cursory examination?

TO REITERATE {seems so many don’t actually read a post properly}
Kata is of enormous benefit to a student, it is an intrinsic and integral part of Karate, I very much enjoy Kata.

AGAIN, I quote Chen Zen opening point:-

My first jab at it is that I dont think that kata are useful for anything other repetition of technique in which case there are far more valuable ways to do this

Mark

PS: perhaps it is ALL karate training that is flawed as defence skills system, not just the Kata practice?

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#292729 - 01/04/07 08:09 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
or perhaps it is YOUR karate training that was flawed as a defense skills system, not just the Kata practice?

some systems of karate don't use kata. some look at kata as a reference and spend less than 10% of their training time working forms - the other 90% of their time is spent on 2-person work.

if this thread really wants to destroy a myth, then a good place to start are these:

* kata is not trained in all systems of Karate.
* often, kata is not trained as a means for 'best self-defense'...nor is it claimed as such.
* kata, in some systems, use it as a reference for 2-person training. perhaps 'drills' at first, and progressing to more flowing work.
* ex-mcdojo kata students who woke up to their delusion, go on forums to complain how kata-based study betrayed them with the delusion their mckata training was for self-defense. ...but was it the kata? or the way the kata was used as a teaching tool by the sensei who lacked training and were themselves delusional?

* it doesn't take kata training to be delusional in MA. look at all the ninjas. ninjitsu isn't a kata-based art, yet delusion runs high in that field. There are delusional non-kata based gyms as well - I saw one place that taught how to take a knife-weilding attacker to the ground without first getting control of the weapon.

even worse than places advertising SD and not actually teaching any are the places teaching bad and dangerous self defense ...you don't need kata to learn delusionaly and you don't need to be studying kata to be delusional.

The TMA kata-based dojo's I've seen teach first and foremost, common sense. you have a gun in your face with someone asking for money - give them the money. a 'hard-core' SD student who learns in a testosterone ridden environment might have the inclination to attempt disarming a drugged-up desparate armed gangsta...

the least delusional wins.

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