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#292680 - 11/24/06 06:32 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
That is a pretty good assertion.

I think that most martial artist that are lifetime practitioners will master only a handful of techniques. They will be able to apply them in different situations and under pressure.

I can think of many many techniques shown in most kata.

The problem here is another kata is being taught before the student grasps the one before it. Then the student has about twenty or more kata to "learn" because of rank requirements and $$$$$$$$$...... I believe you only need to know one to three kata and with these you have a muriad of techniques to explore and the fewer techniques you practice the more effective they will be. Do you need kata to do this? Nope,but I prefer them myself.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292681 - 11/24/06 07:07 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
In Bill Burgar's book "Five Years one kata" the author takes the position the each artist shold ultimatley work one kata of their own creation.

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#292682 - 11/24/06 07:16 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: oldman]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Which sounds to be a much more sensible approach to doing things. Each person must ultimately "create" his own style with the tools he's been given.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292683 - 11/24/06 09:45 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: oldman]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Hmmmmm.....Why not one already created that we make our own?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292684 - 11/24/06 10:44 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good question. In all actuality thats all that martial arts is. Taking something someone else's interpretation and creating your own interpretation so that it will work for you.

The problem with taking an established kata and trying to do this would be, to me, that it has been done so many times and interpreted in so many ways by so many different people. Some or all of these interpretations may not be the same as your own. If you were to the opposite, and create one of your own interpretation, then I think it would be of much more value to you when trying to understand your own relationship with fighting and how you choose to perform it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292685 - 12/07/06 10:39 AM Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Demonologist437]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Demonolog437:

Older thread I'll understand if you did not wish to pick it back up again. But found a "new" message on one of my marked favorite topics thought I'd take a shot, since I have a few moments...

The reason Lee's background is signifigant is obviously the historical context. Too many are unaware/oblivious of his traditional training and mimic his words lacking that knowledge. His previous training was the vehicle, the tools which he used, to eventually reach his infamous conclusion(s). If I merely copy the words and ignore the deeper contexts, I am misunderstanding huge pieces...

What do you mean by "raw"? Are you troubled by the perspective that movements of kata have many layers, rather than a sole, single usage for all eternity? Kata is obscenely precise as to its mechanics, and not haphazard, nor random in any manner. Purely on structural basis, my arms, feet, elbows, knees must be in certain precise parameters-positions or solely on structural basis my techniques will never withstand being attacked-tested...

Once I understand them, after learning how to do a fundamental technique, then I proceed forward to explore subtlities, nuances, and probems that arose in that training. Once understood better, I can examine smaller pieces and aspects... Am I missing something important of your perspective?

As to where the "creation", the art is... we are not our teachers, nor their instructors back to the beginning of ones art. As such, what I do, is the identical receipe with a different flavor... my art is my understanding of my instructors knowledge. It is mine and therefore unique to the person. Very similar but not identical.

Jeff

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#292686 - 12/08/06 02:08 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Ronin1966]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Ah, what the schnell? I could use a nice martial art oriented idscourse via a cumbersome medium after anhilatting most of my brain cells in a whole days worth of college finals.

For one thing, I knew very well that Bruce Lee was brought up through ranks at first as a Wing Chun man. Honestly, what known martial artist hasn't been brought up in some sort of traditional/semi-traditional style at some point in their martial career before going off in other directions?

What i mean by "raw", is that kata only teaches the basic movement/idea really. I do not believe it shows you exact movements that you would carry through when actually applying the technique in a real self-defense situation.

Mostly because, it is one thing to have an uke in class grab you. It is another completely to have a random aggressor, who is most likely shaking you while throwing you around. If you have not brushed up much on flow, fluidity, or sensitivity at that point, he will most likely throw you down while you are struggling for a position to apply your technique. Or at least, that's been my exerpience when I try on a friend as opposed to someone from the dojo.

Honestly, whenever I've tried my technique either the once or twice I have been midly screwed with/sparred casually with my friends, I have neevr actually performed all the motions in whatever technqiue I was trying to apply that i learned in kata. Often, it was just the rough idea of strike arm/lock hand/strike face will trying to stick and move with him.

Further, if I am practicing what you taught me with my own perosonal "flair", it does not make it mine, since I still learned it from you.

And I probably should make this clear that: I still parctice kata in some form(pun, hehe) on my own. The reason why I sit closer to the non-kata happy side, si that i have ntoiced throughout my eight-odd years now of being a martial artist certian inadequacies which have also been shared by some of my peers. I do not blame my sensei, and I do not believe I am a crap martial artist.

When i apply some of the ideas of Bruce Lee, I notice these inadequacies seem to lessen, and so i am sticking with that until i find something else.

Do I exclame when i find a friend doing forms? No. Do I think forms will hurt you directly as a martial artist? No, since most people usually train in some form to make up for the things i listed.

Again, my primary issue with kaat is that it just doesn't seem to me to make a good basis for ALL techniques to flow from. And I do find it restricting at times, even when I am just casually sparring wiht my friends, to apply it's techniques as I have practiced them; and some very in depth.

If kata works for another, fanatastic. please, do nto let my words shy you away from it.

But again, for my own person I find myself aligning more with Mr. Lee's beliefs.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#292687 - 12/08/06 06:39 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Demonologist437]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
You could make a simple case and merely say, if you have a partner to train with, there's no point in doing kata. Everything you can do solo, you can do and do better with a living human being in front of you.


-John

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#292688 - 12/09/06 02:04 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Then why shadowbox, do bag work or anythign liek that or not fight close to full on all the time?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292689 - 12/09/06 08:36 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It should be obvious that shadow boxing isn't kata. If it were, there would be no reason for all of the different forms of kata out there. Everyone could just shadowbox. But they don't...they do kata. Right? I mean, many people like to make that analogy but the two are apples and oranges. As well, shadow boxing is more of a warm-up than anything else. It doesn't take up a large percentage of training time.

Bag work, running, weight lifting are all things that improve your attributes for fighting, but do not improve your fighting themselves. In other words, if all anyone ever did was bag work, running and weight lifting, they might get themselves in better shape, but that doesn't mean that they can fight worth a damn. They're not developing skill in application. That REQUIRES a living human partner to accomplish.

Honestly, you should simply know these things. It's just common sense.

Fighting "full-out" all the time causes unnecessary burn-out and injury. Plus there is no need. It's good to go harder on occasion, but to do so all the time is like constantly running your car at red-line. Not a real good idea.

The key is to work your timing more than anything else.


-John

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