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#292750 - 01/04/07 10:32 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Brian:

<<Block kick punch is for the wee tikes.

I do not know if it is merely for "wee tikes". Myself I do not want to be struck by anything that someone has been practicing the hitting of you/I with for 10, 15, 20 years... no thanks!

If in place of ~wee tikes~, we said instead training for larger groups of people then I think might explain one layer of the issue pretty cleanly. The ~wee tikes~ business gets kind of shaky if the schools/students in question were older than what we might be conceiving. All depends on what age that "school instruction" occured exactly....



Jeff

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#292751 - 01/04/07 11:00 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mark:



<<1, Are Kata a pre-arranged sequence of moves?

By definition, yes. Somebody's ideas/concepts passed in physical form between two people.

<<2, Is a dance routine a pre-arranged sequence of moves?

Depends on who's "leading"

<<3, Does Kata provide {on its own} a system for learning defence skills?

Yes, if I think/am taught them in those terms. If I never explore them by working with hundreds of people sizes, temperments, I cannot see what they say about the given problem-issue uncovered...

<<4, Does Kata practice, develop muscle memory for only Air basics?

Only if I use them solo...

<<can it be said that any partner work is applied Kata?

I certainly would....

<<most instructors hide behind Kata practice because they arenít able to develop a students any other way?

If you/I have a physical skill to share with people who wish to learn said skill, there is a certain rote routine we give us all to start. With it, we learn quickly all ,manner of things about someone.

If we teach a lot of different people, the need for a common starting point, at minimum a starting routine/proceedure seems necessary. Otherwise too much chaos in the group to be able to share anything.

<<After all Kata is often karate by numbers.



<<to fully understand the mystic, value of each Kata

I missed your conversation with Ed where you were apparently discussing the ~mysticism of kata~ (???) in some manner... (I will likely therefore get this completely wrong.... but here goes anyway...)

Working with all kinds of body types, ages, temperments, techniques fail. They realize/know what is happening and freeze you out, are physical "anamolies", whatever the case might be. With me so far? It will take me the rest of my life (and I am a sloooooooooooow learner) to have run into all these different "ooooops" enough times to have worked out the particular solutions someone will present. On that level alone, its not mystical, its insanity... ie what am I still doing studying this stuff for years, I should be home, resting my sore hip watching the ~pabhlem channel~ on TV. Nope, I like this stuff, and enjoy the challenge... "what do I do if grabbed this way instead... what does this kata say about that... It takes forever to peel this onion and digest it

Merely my musings, forgive my non-brevity,
Jeff

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#292752 - 01/04/07 11:26 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Ronin1966]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Bump

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#292753 - 01/05/07 10:43 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Ronin1966]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hello Brian:

<<Block kick punch is for the wee tikes.

I do not know if it is merely for "wee tikes". Myself I do not want to be struck by anything that someone has been practicing the hitting of you/I with for 10, 15, 20 years... no thanks!

If in place of ~wee tikes~, we said instead training for larger groups of people then I think might explain one layer of the issue pretty cleanly. The ~wee tikes~ business gets kind of shaky if the schools/students in question were older than what we might be conceiving. All depends on what age that "school instruction" occured exactly....



Jeff





Maybe that wee tikes was a bit overboard. But that is an aspect of kata that is taught at many schools and then nothing else is ever revealed. Could be that the instructor doesn't know any other aspects of kata himself. THEN,students of kata who know twenty or so kata whine about how ineffective,boring,useless,or stupid kata is. (Like Ed said) Well guess what? The training is to blame,not the kata!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292754 - 01/05/07 01:51 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Katana83]
Khayman Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
Quote:

Now suddenly he was only toying with us. For all of his talk you would think th Seems like just another net martial artist, you know - the ones who read a bunch of articles on the internet then swear up and down that something is absolutely 'this' or 'that'. Pathetic.




Good one Mark, youve given me a reason to start reading this site again. Hilarious

So now you are a net martial artist Mark, lol
So me, Mr V, Sharon etc training under you must have been figments of our imagination??? That ust make us net martial artists too.lol

By the way Ed, you never stopped mark in his tracks, you picked on a random group of Yoseikan practitioners who have nothing to do with our old group maybe researching yoseikan properly would have been a better course of action otherwise we could pick a random goju club and say thats you that is, thats what you do???

This thread has been very entertaining though, maybe something to do with the legendary british wit and sarcasm

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (01/05/07 02:48 PM)

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#292755 - 01/05/07 02:28 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Khayman]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Hi Khayman,

This Forum isnít like it was years ago, so many fragile people with bubbles to burst. Everyone takes it so seriously, I just have fun

Any Way, Mr Khayman, it seems that if we practice Heain Shodan enough, the secrets of the universe will be unlocked to us... ..left forward stance , left low level block...

Yes yes, i can feel it coming, Praise the lord!!!!! Martial salvation is at hand!!!!

Mark

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#292756 - 01/05/07 02:43 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Khayman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

if someone can act serious, then change gears when it suits them and say 'I was just playing'...then it becomes a non-conversation. maybe you could get away with that crap on forums 3 years ago....but thats exactly what it is: crap.

I have to assume his comment having 30 years of MA experience was 'just playing' too.

conclusion: troll. g'bye.


ps. "I'm just playin" lol

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#292757 - 01/05/07 02:58 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
Khayman Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
Quote:

Hi Khayman,

This Forum isnít like it was years ago, so many fragile people with bubbles to burst. Everyone takes it so seriously, I just have fun

Any Way, Mr Khayman, it seems that if we practice Heain Shodan enough, the secrets of the universe will be unlocked to us... ..left forward stance , left low level block...

Yes yes, i can feel it coming, Praise the lord!!!!! Martial salvation is at hand!!!!

Mark





Not been the same since Mr V left.
However you have to remember Heian Shodan is the centre of the universe. I remember a high ranking karateka coming to wado class we were visiting and teaching Heian Shodan as a very special kata they would never have seen before. I remember looking over at Mr V and us both trying to keep a straight face.

Yes Ed, if I have been training 24 years then I would hope my instructor had been training a few more than me, lol. How long have you been actively training Ed?

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#292758 - 01/05/07 03:07 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Khayman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:



By the way Ed, you never stopped mark in his tracks, you picked on a random group of Yoseikan practitioners who have nothing to do with our old group maybe researching yoseikan properly would have been a better course of action otherwise we could pick a random goju club and say thats you that is, thats what you do???




sure...because "I'm just having fun".


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rue#Post1576870
"If you try google with Yoseikan Budo you can get to the main Yoseikan World Federation page."

guess what?...I googled "Yoseikan uk" and it came up on the first hit with a website having a 10 year old sensei.
http://www.yoseikan.co.uk/page7.html


so was it kata-based learning at Yoseikan or wasn't it? and was mark doing Shotokan simultaneously with Yoseikan for 20 years? ...or does Yoseikan have Shotokan kata?

oh wait...or was mark kidding about those things too?

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#292759 - 01/05/07 03:12 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Khayman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not that it's on topic, but I've been doing Goju longer than you've been dancing.

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