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#292690 - 12/09/06 03:52 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Who on here ever said kata was requierd anywya? It's just got some good benifits but is not essential.
Anyway, I never said SB is kata, I'm just pointing out your logic. You say basically that if you aren't training 'alive' with a partner then you wont get an better, yet you still use the heavy bag, speed bag probably, shadow boxing and other things which are not 'alive' much more than kata, especially when using by-rote combinations. You're contradicting yourself. And you think those exercises do no good for increasing your skills? I think that goes agaisnt common sense, if oyu practice oyur skills well you WILL get better. It's just how it works.


Edited by Stormdragon (12/09/06 03:58 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292691 - 12/09/06 08:37 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon wrote:
Quote:

Who on here ever said kata was required anyway? It's just got some good benifits but is not essential.





I donít believe anyone implied that anyone HERE said that kata was required. However, I HAVE heard people elsewhere imply that and say that in so many words. There ARE people out there who believe it as well and many folks on this forum probably do also. I am merely providing the counter point to that argument. I believe that the new kids getting into martial arts deserve to know the truth about the matter.


Quote:


Anyway, I never said SB is kata, I'm just pointing out your logic. You say basically that if you aren't training 'alive' with a partner then you wont get an better, yet you still use the heavy bag, speed bag probably, shadow boxing and other things which are not 'alive' much more than kata, especially when using by-rote combinations.




I donít use a heavy bag that often, or a speed bag, or shadow boxing. This is primarily because Iím a grappler first and a striker second. I prefer to spend my training time working with partners as I have limited time to train as it is. Heavy bags damaged my shoulders years ago. At this stage, I just donít see the purpose if Iím not planning on boxing.

However I will say this again, heavy bags do not make you a better fighter, only a more powerful striker. Equipment training alone will not develop your ability to fight anywhere NEAR the degree that training with a partner will. However, I would always rank equipment training above kata because at least you are able to go against resistance.


Quote:


You're contradicting yourself. And you think those exercises do no good for increasing your skills? I think that goes agaisnt common sense, if oyu practice oyur skills well you WILL get better. It's just how it works.





I think youíre not following me, as usual. Read slower if you have to.

Do you believe that fighting a bag will develop your timing for fighting a human being that hits you back?


Stormdragon, Iím just about done with you man. For the LIFE of you, you canít follow what Iím saying. You take what I say out of context and twist it around. That makes it impossible to have a debate with you.

Working with equipment is like this; Imagine getting a grappling dummy and wrestling it. Then after having done that for a bit, you have this belief that now you can wrestle live human beings. I think if you believe that, you might possibly be insane. Yet you are saying the same thing about other bags. And about kata, etc.

Here is my opinion (so read carefully)

  • Kata has no relationship to a real human being anymore than a grappling dummy does. Training with EITHER will only help your skills in the most infinitesimal manner. That is my opinion.
  • Training on a heavy bag is fine if you want to develop explosive punching power. That is what it is designed for. That will NOT teach you how to fight however. That must be done through SPARRING. That is where you learn to APPLY your skills and to develop the TIMING for fighting.
  • Training on bags ALONE will not develop your ability to fight anymore than only doing weight lifting. They develop attributes that you can use for fighting, but do not develop your skills for fighting.


I seriously believe that you will (again) misconstrue everything that I have written and will take everything out of context. But, what the hell. I have nothing else to do at the momentÖÖ..



-John

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#292692 - 12/09/06 09:11 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
John,

I'd just like to point out that you are arguing with someone less than half your age and not anywhere close to your experience in life or ma.

With that said,hell, teenagers think they know everything. I did,now I can't remember any of it.

Both sides of the argument have been presented.

I think kata training has benefits,but the benefits can be gained elsewhere. That makes kata unnecessary for self defense imo. Still, no myth that I heard has been dispelled.

Do kata or do not,I really don't give a flying flip. If you learn from me though, you will do kata!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292693 - 12/09/06 09:28 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
You know I dont agree with oyu, so you may as well be done now JK.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292694 - 12/09/06 10:05 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon -

Got no beef with you personally and, I truthfully don't care if you and the rest of the forum agrees with me or not. I am out NOTHING if you don't.

All I try and do here is present another viewpoint. That's all we really CAN do on forums. If you don't happen to agree with my viewpoint, that's your prerogative. Do what suits you best.



-John

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#292695 - 12/09/06 10:09 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
THATS WHAT I"M DOING! I'm giving a counter point that I think is true that is obviously against yours. I'm arguing my point.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292696 - 12/09/06 10:11 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
And you kinda asked for a cease fire.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292697 - 12/09/06 10:19 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Which is what I am giving him.


-John

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#292698 - 12/09/06 10:32 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Fair neough, cease fire.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292699 - 12/09/06 11:48 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Being a youngster that knows everything , I agree with you here John.

Speedbag, heavy bag, etc, etc, is just to increase your attributes such as strength, stamina, agility, etc.

Real skills comes from "doing" it. Sparring is the only thing that will ultimately enchance skill. Timing, precision, strategy, strength and weakness are all found during sparring.

Punching a bag might develop explosive power, but the timing, method of delivery, accuracy and power comes from sparring with a living partner. For example, I can't really punch hard on those punching machines, but I am able to hit my opponent. Now, here's the million dollar question; what's the point in being able to punch hard when you can't hit?

Being a half-grappler, the case of "alive" sparring is even more important. There is really no way to practice Judo without doing it with a partner. There is no doll that gives resistance like a person.

In Kata, the throw is performed in one way, but in reality it depends solely on your opponent. Some throws are not possible on short stubby people, or tall dudes.

Kata isn't my favorite thing, but I don't neglect it. I usually look at one or two once every 4 month. I rather spend my time training or sparring where I can actually develop my acquired techniques and maybe copy others.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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