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#292570 - 10/11/06 05:10 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Would it surprise anyone if I said that it is my belief that a person walking in the door of a dojo or a gym generally has no idea what they want or need to learn. Would it surprise anyone if I said that a person walking into a dojo or a gym asking to learn to fight is deluded, confused or lacks understanding. I don't mean that in a bad way. Just a human way. It's not "mystical" its' scientific.

Lets use Mazlow's hierarchy of needs as the base for the arguement. A person "needing" to defend himself and looking for the most efficent means to do that would most efficiently do it by arming himself.Training Karate or MMA would be inefficiant compared to arming oneself. After meeting our rudimentary needs for shelter and safety a normal human moves up the hierarchy and attempts to meets "Higher needs". Identity, belonging, community, purpose. Thet majority of people walking into a gym or dojo have there lower level needs well taken care of long before they darken the door of a training facility.

So if that is true the question becomes in what ways does TMA, MMA or JKD or any method of training aid people in meeting their actual and percieved needs In a way that say... knitting with friends doesn't.

Quote:

The myth is that they are required training regiment for successful self defense.




To be honest I have never heard anyone take that position.

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#292571 - 10/11/06 05:15 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah but things have changed in the world of MA. For one awareness. With the internet came the ability to learn almost anything. Training has changed quiet a bit. How many full contact sparring was there 30 years ago when karate was still relatively new to the u.s.? Not a whole lot. The awareness of all fighting ranges in combat. Many schools used to be one dimensional. Now many of them incorporate bjj or other arts to supplement their core training. So in affect UFC and K1, and the MMA scene changed things quit a bit. Maybe not directly but through the awareness it caused. And no Im not saying that because I train like them that I fight as well or worse than they do. It is a personal thing like you said.

As for shadow boxing being freeform. yes it is. The uppercut, while being properly executed is not restricted to one plane of movement such as in kata.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292572 - 10/11/06 05:16 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: oldman]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I HAVE heard that kata is necessary for the complete development of fighting skill. I have heard that kata is NOT necessary for the complete development of fighting skill. Both of statements have come from instructors who teach kata as a part of their curriculum.

I (of course) take the stance that kata is not a necessary practice, but to each his own. That it isn't necessary should be fairly obvious. I don't really care either way honestly, I just like good conversation -- which is what the whole kata thing is about for me.

Cheers,


-John

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#292573 - 10/11/06 05:22 PM Re: Chen eats cake and cactus [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I have heard that kata is necessary for self defense,but it's simply not true and any mma guy can prove it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292574 - 10/11/06 05:28 PM Re: Chen eats cake and cactus [Re: BrianS]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
so your saying that every thing we can learn from kata has already been improved uppon through modern methods??

you think that this argument realy bothers the kendo guys much at all? bottom line is yeah, it's personal, and this person enjoys his training, you newfangled kids with all you elctronic training equpiment and videogames can go to town, i'll just keep on punching the old peice of wood in the back yard......lonly old me.......
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#292575 - 10/11/06 05:30 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Quote:

Gotta disagree. Doing kata with power and speed is nothing like doing focus pads. Focus pads move, for one. Forcing you to perform while constantly adjusting. Just like you would be forced to adjust to your opponent.

And yes, If I do more jabs, Im better at it. Which is perfect for drilling. And drilling doesnt have to be just one technique. You can do drilling for combos, footwork, takedowns and grappling. Just for clarification. Also you can learn timing with progressive resistance sparring and good bagwork.




I'd also like to note that I do bag work, I use focus pads, I do the drills and the sparring etc...

You can also use kata for combos, footwork, takedowns, grabbling.

I understand what you mean when you want to go against moving focus mits, I agree that kata won't help you time your opponets movements.

However thats where sparring comes in.
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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#292576 - 10/11/06 05:31 PM Re: Chen eats cake and cactus [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
There are different methods to learning everything in kata,it's just how you want to go about it. I prefer kata.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292577 - 10/11/06 05:40 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Spade]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Spade wrote
Quote:

I understand what you mean when you want to go against moving focus mits, I agree that kata won't help you time your opponets movements.

However thats where sparring comes in.





So why not simply do more sparring while supplementing time on focus pads? Sparring IS the thing that develops the attributes for fighting anyway!



-John

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#292578 - 10/11/06 05:41 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Chen

30 years ago most sparring was full contact or nearly so--groin kicking was still legal in some areas.
That was still back in the block or bleed days.
In Japan, fighters were often injured in tournament sparring.

(the Kyoshinkai, the Uechi and the Goju groups to my info, have pretty much always gone hard)

Many schools practice a much harsher form of sparring "in horse" than they do at tournament--esp "open" ones.

Awarmenss of fighting ranges is a really old concept that is in no way shape or form "new."

Only poor schools are "one dimensional"---so their training is suspect from the get-go.

Still don't see shadowboxing as all that differentfrom kata.

I'm still "stuck" with the same set of possible punchs, same set of movement etc.
Not like I can suddenly throw a kick into the mix---I mean I CAN--just my coach will kill me.

I am picking up an uppercut and jab in various kata, so I can either practice them IN the kata.
Or I can pull them out and practice them on the heavy bag, or with a resistant partner.

Just like I can with shadowboxing.


Edited by cxt (10/11/06 05:42 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#292579 - 10/11/06 05:45 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: cxt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
CXT --

Do you really see no difference between shadow boxing and kata? Does shadow boxing have to stay rooted to some pattern on the floor or, aren't you allowed to move around and improvise?

Isn't kata something that as a pattern is pretty much "fixed" as in, the pattern is already pre-arranged? That certainly isn't the case with shadow boxing.


-John

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