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#292780 - 01/23/07 11:49 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
mark

Its one of the "evil" XMA things.

I'm pretty sure that its mentioned in the Book of Revelations as a sign of the coming End of the World

And if I have to look at it much longe that is exactly what I'm praying for.

My eyes, my eyes!!!!!!!!!

(cute girl however)


Edited by cxt (01/23/07 11:52 AM)

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#292781 - 01/24/07 12:32 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

this is kata or dance?



neither. it's a martialy-themed acrobatic performance loosely timed to music....and a good one at that.

the only difference to dance would be if the movements had more adherence to the rhythm with less regard for the structure of movements (eg it would be dance if it were more expression and less confined structure- the martial theme overshadows the expression).

a fine line, but it's just my subjective opinion.

pure acrobatics want to show as first and foremost, their physical ability limited only by that ability and their imagination to demonstrate that ability.

dance is movement as rhythmic expression, usually to music.

pantomime is the non-verbal telling of a story or message using gestures to invoke emotion or feeling.


any movement or theme of movement can be used for dance, acrobatics or pantomime. If someone chooses to base any one of these performances on what used to be kata, then we can say the theme of the performance is martially based.

It's recorded that there have been Chinese street performers of quan since at least the 18th century...some simply peddlers...and later some as an 'advertisement' to their school (which often doubled as a front for some type of underlaying cause or cultlike gang or even political faction) for a sort of hidden in plain sight recruitment to their 'way'.

Okinawan folk dances (which are more like a pantomime, except not called that since the stories they tell are long lost and just the movements remain...so they call it dance) ...I'm convinced they are martially based. Some of the more modern ones which perhaps don't tell any story seem directly influenced from classical martial-based kata.

basing a routine on kata, exagurating and embelishing the movements in order to demonstrate physical ability is martial acrobatics...or themed gymnastics. kata performance competitions in front of judges often fall in this category with varying levels of exagurated movement. and the two-person 'bunaki' competitions I've seen just look like an extension of that 'performance over function' goal.

people only know what kata can be used for with what they are shown...since performance Arts are the ones making money - thats the way most people have gravitated to using kata for over the years. So, increasingly people will call a performance 'kata', when in fact it resembles less and less of what it was based on...in the process losing what the kata can be used for.

However, if they only need kata to demonstrate performance to an audience or judge: they dont need to care what else kata can be used for.


Besides, regardless of the theme a performance takes...it's the physical ability itself that mostly would help a person defend themselves. all things equal, with no MA training - I'd think someone in good shape, flexible and healthy has a much better chance of fending off attack than someone who is not. Basing on just the video, the person doing the performance probably wouldn't have any better chance fighting an equal weight and sized non-MA gymnast or acrobat. Just because the theme is martial-based...don't necessarily make the performer a better fighter than someone doing an equally demanding routine with a different theme. Same with dojo's practicing forms with no intention to move the student into understanding fighting principles within the form.


There's no proof of what kata was 'originally' intended for, but what I believe is that kata is simply one of many training aides to learn principles of personal weaponless defense.

Trying to use it as such comes with the assumption that one is learning the kata from someone who knows how to teach it this way. One thing is certain: kata was meant to be transmitted in person over a period of years from someone who has learned how to use it for training. ...not transmitted via youtube for people to 'learn the moves' of a competition dance step.



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#292782 - 01/24/07 06:52 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: mark]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Sorry to reopen this, but can i just ask if this is kata or dance?






Define dance and you'll have your answer.


-John

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#292783 - 01/24/07 08:45 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
mark has been banned.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#292784 - 01/28/07 09:10 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: Chen Zen]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
I love all the Bruce Lee wannabe's, they amuse me. Even Bruce Lee found usefulness in katas/forms, he just didn't stick to them like some divine gospel like alot of traditionalists do.

You are asking karatekas. why don't you try asking someone who practiced the root CMA arts instead?

To me, forms have, and never will be a method of fighting, or even a way of practicing them solo. Forms are merely tools to develop specific body types, energetic principles, power generation, flexibility, strength (stances), fluidity (in CMA), power, etc. In no way is it useful for fighting alone, but it is useful in many other ways if you know how to.

For example, in IMA, Taiji/bagua/xingyi, you would be nothing without the practice of your forms. The forms give you both the internal, and external components in which to devleop your body and mind as a tool. But NEVER have I ever thoguht the "techniques" to be used the way they are used in the form. Only karatekas/shaolin guys think IMA techniques are used straight out of the form. In the simplest external techniques, you are merely learning principles. In the more subtle movements, you are learning the correct body mechanics, generation of power from subtle muscles, which way direction of physical force is going, how to articulate your body together (without tension) to lead it to its destianation, etc. Never, for fighting alone.

The misuse of katas/forms and lack of understanding from MMA/JKD guys, comes from just that-ignorance.

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#292785 - 05/01/07 03:35 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BaguaMonk]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

You are asking karatekas. why don't you try asking someone who practiced the root CMA arts instead?




What is CMA?

Quote:


To me, forms have, and never will be a method of fighting, or even a way of practicing them solo.



I think I dissagree

Quote:


Forms are merely tools to develop specific body types, energetic principles, power generation, flexibility, strength (stances), fluidity (in CMA), power, etc.




I tend to agree apart from the merely part
Quote:

In no way is it useful for fighting alone,



Tend not to agree
Quote:


but it is useful in many other ways if you know how to.




Tend to agree
Quote:


For example, in IMA, Taiji/bagua/xingyi, you would be nothing without the practice of your forms. The forms give you both the internal, and external components in which to devleop your body and mind as a tool. But NEVER have I ever thoguht the "techniques" to be used the way they are used in the form.




Yes they can be with a little variation of the when and how to use the technique(s)

Quote:


Only karatekas/shaolin guys think IMA techniques are used straight out of the form. In the simplest external techniques, you are merely learning principles. In the more subtle movements, you are learning the correct body mechanics, generation of power from subtle muscles, which way direction of physical force is going, how to articulate your body together (without tension) to lead it to its destianation, etc. Never, for fighting alone.

The misuse of katas/forms and lack of understanding from MMA/JKD guys, comes from just that-ignorance.




Hi.I think the miss understanding of kata comes from the bunkia that would never work in a million years in a practical sitution. From the kata in my study's the techiques work

Well in some cases what you have written I agree but in others I disagree. It seems to me from what I have seen of my studies that the techniques in some kenpo arts practiced(none kata) have their roots in chinese and then later karate forms.

They can and do work. Learn the stand alone technique and thats it. Learn the kata and variations keep appearing for different applications.

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#292786 - 05/05/07 10:50 AM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: jude33]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
CMA - Chinese Martial Art

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#292787 - 06/06/07 12:10 PM Re: Chen Destroys the kata myth [Re: BaguaMonk]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
For one, I don't think anybody has said anything condemning the applications Mr. Monk laid out. If I recall, it was the idea that practicing kata by itself could replace the need for alive, dynamic two person training. That, I would verily disagree with.

I practice Taiji forms and JKD. I cut out the karate katas however because they gave me very little. Perhaps other more, but me very little.

Further, looking at this from the perspective of any martial system or style("root" arts or otherwise) would sort of smear bias on the final answer, yes?

Also, not to pick, but I don't think calling anyone ignorant is going to help. We can't all be expected to pracicte one another's respective art.

Lastly, I'd say that as far as katas go(though it's probably the obvious answer), do as you will. If it seems to wokr for you, or you enjoy, kata your little heart out. Nobody can really stop anyone from doing that, and I have run into very effective practioners who still practice kata with seriousness. I wouldn't blame that soley on forms training, but if it works for them, great.

As the man said, "Research your own experience."
If it works, go with it. At the same time though, I'd say to keep an open mind if situations change.

Personally, I quit practicing my kata and I in no way regret it. However, I sure as hell wouldn't tell my old sensei that if I saw him again...
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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