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#292526 - 05/19/07 04:20 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Taison]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Because I'm more of a striker I go for the MT clinch so that I can use my most lethal of tools etc. knees, elbows, and head butt. I find that in a real altercation this is where you want to be, from the MT clinch you can control your attacker and keep them off balance or you have the option of attacks. They are also rendered useless; although not completely.

I still believe the wrestlers clinch or judo clinch gives the advantage to the bigger more powerful person, even if the little guy is skilled, i would rather keep the fight standing in striking range rather than taking it to the ground.

Obviously you can see a big hole in my game, thats why I currently train ground. But currently I am learning more how to control and maintain positions rather than learning how to submit, I'm still on the basics. I can now transition but what i find difficult for me is maintaining full mount. Funny thing is I thought this would be the easiest to keep.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#292527 - 05/19/07 07:57 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Honestly, there is really a great deal of difference between the Thai clinch and the wrestlers clinch. The common bond between them is center position. THAT is the thing that affords "leverage". Thus, it's about who has the leverage and not as much about who is bigger and stronger.

Being bigger and stronger however is ALWAYS a factor, regardless of what type of clinch or what range you're fighting from. The more skilled that larger opponent is, the more this is true.

Also, the elbows, knees and headbutts are as easily performed from a wrestling clinch (just wanted to throw that out there).

Should also mention that the clinch is dynamic. No one is going to get a clinch position and easily hang onto it. It's going to mean pummeling and transitioning. The same is true of the Thai clinch (specifically, the double neck tie) if the guy understands how to pummel and counter.

Too much PFS philosophy floating around in here.....


-John

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#292528 - 05/19/07 08:13 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Personally, I've found the Thai clinch, although viable, to be just basic in wrestling.

I can do from a wrestling clinch exactly, if not better, from a wrestling clinch.

Basically, the double-neck tie, isn't the end-all solution to clinching. There's way too many variables and there's a lot of solutions to get out of it. I find it easy to get out of the double-neck tie than it is from a under-hook neck pinch (one hand grabs elbow, the other on the neck).

Quote:

from the MT clinch you can control your attacker and keep them off balance or you have the option of attacks.


You can do the same from a wrestling clinch, and you have the option to throw, takedown, or pummel your opponent.

Quote:

i would rather keep the fight standing in striking range rather than taking it to the ground.


Hmm, I think you're confused here. The wrestling game is about being able to stand on your legs while taking your opponent down. If both are skilled and won't go down, that's clinching. Clinching is basically wrestling while standing.

Quote:

I still believe the wrestlers clinch or judo clinch gives the advantage to the bigger more powerful person


But has been PROVEN by many smaller wrestlers on plenty of occassion it works for smaller people and it's not based on strength (even though wrestlers are quite strong compared to the rest). It's all about leverage, momentum and dominating in the clinch, not so much about strength. But strength helps!

Being primarily a striker, I don't like the ground, but wrestling has aided me TONS in keeping me standing. Wrestling also has given me the god-sent technique called 'sprawl'. It's like a beam of light shining the sky. It's god-sent and divine. I still can't believe I spent most of my years without it.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#292529 - 05/21/07 02:10 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
I would say, that trapping is still a range and it still needs to be run through like everything else. Whether it's Greco-Roman wrestling or Hsing-Yi, so long as you've found something that works and works for YOU, then it's good I'd say.

Bruce stressed that it's about expressing yourself, and so that is what I would say is the only guidline. And, taking and applying only what is useful wherever you can get it from. Of course, personal preference and attributes play into things as well. While I have friends wqho like rolling around on the ground, I'd rather stay on my feet since I have long arms and legs with fairly quick hands and I can utilize fully my footwork which I love so dearly. When it comes to trapping, my aim is to not get up close and personal but to be able to crack him with some of my Arnis trapping, and then gte back to punching and kicking and footwork. I'm good at it, and can make it work fine. Doesn't mean I've found some "new way" that is somehow better than what other people do or other people used to do, it's just what works for me.

Do that with trapping, and any range you could end up in, and you'll do fine I'd say.







On a brief side note, I don't trust most of the things Joe Lewis says. It's common knowledge he's not a nice person and was the "bad boy" of Karate back in his day. Further, he is very two-faced when it comes to talking about Bruce and JKD, though he owes one of his championships to training with Bruce. In some interviews, he talks nicely about him and JKD, while in just as many he berates the dead man and his art. I do not totally disregard everything I hear from Mr. Lewis, but I am skeptical whenever it's about Bruce or JKD.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#292530 - 07/02/07 07:43 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

Too much PFS philosophy floating around in here.....




LOL, you caught me. But it's no secret I've admitted it to you before, thats why I ask questions rather than just challenge anyones post.

Yes, the majority of my JKD knowledge comes from PFS.

However, on a personal note, I find it very difficult to use my most dangerous tools from the wrestlers clinch. Because while I strike that other guy gets leverage on me. Isn't that how it works? I've gotten very comfortable getting into the thai clinch and keeping my opponent there. I constantly throw them off balance and use my shoulder and bicep slap. But thats pretty much just to control the man, in reality he would be down in 1 to 3 strikes.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#292531 - 07/02/07 07:49 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Taison]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I too know how to sprawl, however, I find that it is better to drop my center low, and use footwork to back away. When the guy comes in for a take down, I use my fore arms for protection, I place them on the side of his neck to keep him from coming in, from here I can elbow, knee, and head butt.

Yes John once again this is PFS.

Have you seen it before?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#292532 - 07/02/07 08:04 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


LOL, you caught me. But it's no secret I've admitted it to you before, thats why I ask questions rather than just challenge anyones post. Yes, the majority of my JKD knowledge comes from PFS.





Hey, it's no problem. At one point, I was heavily into PFS. I'm even a certified instructor under Vu (although I'm not listed on his site). I just grew out of the PFS stuff a while back. Conceptually a lot of it is good stuff! The RAT for example is an awesome concept and to an extent, I still use it. Its just been modified.


Quote:


However, on a personal note, I find it very difficult to use my most dangerous tools from the wrestlers clinch. Because while I strike that other guy gets leverage on me. Isn't that how it works?





It's a matter of learning how to wrestle for specific upper body positions. There are some excellent positions from which to maneuver your opponent around and strike from.

Having a background in PFS with their emphasis on the "HKE" (headbutts/knees/elbows), I understand where you're coming from. That said, those strikes are still available from the wrestling clinch that I'm referring to. In fact, the headbutt is a primary tool in good wrestling! No it's not an "in and out" type of move. It's done more like a RAM where after you've blasted your head into position, you KEEP it there. And no, there is no easy way to adequately explain this - you have to see it done basically.

Striking out of the clinch the way we do it has to be adjusted. It requires diligent training. You have to wrestle for your positions and learn to hit on the fly in a dynamic fashion. Then you work to wrestle for a position, work your strikes, then regain position. So itís sort of like this; wrestle for a tie up, hit, regain control, pummel into another tie up (if necessary), hit, regain control. Repeat.

There are positions that you tend to work for over others. These generally involve working to angle off slightly from your opponent. They allow you to control the center, throw knees and elbows easily or, rake the eyes, hit the groin, etc. They ALSO allow you to easily take the opponent to the ground if need be.

Many of these positions allow you to take the opponent down using low risk moves that often leave you standing, so there are some very good things to be found using the wrestling approach. Like many things, it just has to be slightly modified for striking.


Quote:


I've gotten very comfortable getting into the thai clinch and keeping my opponent there. I constantly throw them off balance and use my shoulder and bicep slap. But thats pretty much just to control the man, in reality he would be down in 1 to 3 strikes.





If youíre good at the Thai clinch, then thatís your game. Continue to work and hone it. Good job. If you ever get the opportunity, work with a good Greco-Roman guy who doesnít have an ego. Even better if heís already exploring Greco-Roman for fighting. Add it to the mix of what you do. Youíll enjoy the process.

I still work the Thai clinch approach into the wrestling approach that I use, thus it tends to be a mix of each. MMA in other words, lol.


-John

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#292533 - 03/04/08 04:28 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Rumble]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

I see alot of new age JKD practitioners discard there trapping skills. Even Burton Richardson says he doesnt really focus on any trappings anymore. As for me I love trapping as I have sparred with grapplers and my trapping skills work on them because they are not familair with this technique after the grapplers want to learn trapping but they cannot because they cannot grasp or comprehend the concept of chi sao or sensitivity drills to them its all about brute force. Also trapping skills takes alot of practice and training to keep them up to par. Although training on a wing chun dummy for your trapping is great once again its not really realistic as the dummy is not attacking you and you cannot feel his energy (sensitivity)the best way is with a live partner and with many different multiple partners so you can feel that eveyones energy is different instead of just practicing with the same person everyday.




We don't do ANY Wing Chun energy drills. We don't do any wing chun period (cept for maybe a straight blast now and then)

But we do find ourselves trapping. The thing is, it is much more like wrestling / greco roman applications - arm drags and stuff.

So we don't really trap in the sense of wing chun.

But we DO still stometimes shove our opponent's arm across his own body.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#292534 - 03/28/08 02:36 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: janxspirit]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Theres too many essay long replys here *ahem John*

Yes I trap but usually only to get myself inside and then the trapping stops and the massive hurting begins
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#292535 - 03/30/08 01:27 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Theres too many essay long replys here *ahem John*





What the hell is THAT supposed to mean, lol? Are you wanting me to STFU or something? (like thats going to happen)

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